Extra long bolts for securing unstable rock feature

slim wrote:

this is worth repeating - you will want to make sure you have a plan for dealing with this.  especially if you can't really look down into that gap to see what is going on.  you will end up injecting a bunch of glue that falls into the gap and doesn't make it into the hole of the parent rock.  then when you place the threaded rod and the glue sets, you will think you are good to go....

I *think* the flake is flush to the wall, but I’ll discover whether that’s the case during drilling. I totally get how I’d be pumping epoxy into empty space. 

John Byrnes wrote:

I have a friend who has done this type of things multiple times with excellent results.  He often posts here but he may not see this, so I'll send him a note via email.   

He use 1/2" SS threaded rod (maybe larger?), extra long drill (2 foot?)  and glue nozzle.    After the glue dries, he puts on a nut (w/ thread-locker) and a fender washer to hold the flake.  

I was thinking this^^^ as well. The trick would be getting the glue into the base rock deeper than the flake. But I would think it's very do-able. I missed where you said what kind of rock this is. The risk of any hole is that you are making a point where it could create a fracture plane, a weakness of some sort that did not exist previously, and wham, there goes the time bomb off in 2 pieces right where the hole was first time someone latches onto it. Not true of some of course. Granite is super tough and would laugh right into your holes face. However, Jim T knows his stuff and I'd go with what he suggests. Long drillbits are easily procured on the internet. They get left over from construction projects at decent prices if you wait a bit. Just remember that a 12" drill bit only gets you @ 10" of hole. 

Good luck!

Jim Lawyer wrote:

I *think* the flake is flush to the wall, but I’ll discover whether that’s the case during drilling. I totally get how I’d be pumping epoxy into empty space. 

I'm having a hard time envisioning the situation you're in, so I apologize if this is off base, but could you not just put a bunch of epoxy in between the wall and the flake and just glue it on? Done well you'd never know it was back there and then no bolt needed.

Down here in the south it's pretty common to encounter horizontal flakes on roofs that are necessary for the climb to be doable, so I've seen some rather creative bolt/glue jobs.

Alexander Stathis wrote:

I'm having a hard time envisioning the situation you're in, so I apologize if this is off base, but could you not just put a bunch of epoxy in between the wall and the flake and just glue it on? Done well you'd never know it was back there and then no bolt needed.

Down here in the south it's pretty common to encounter horizontal flakes on roofs that are necessary for the climb to be doable, so I've seen some rather creative bolt/glue jobs.

I believe in areas with cold winters that could just accelerate frost wedging or whatever its called.

Alexander...Jim's also taking about a multi-100lb (maybe 1000lb?) flake, not a handhold in a roof. Like NH's "Old Man of the Mountains" , it needs to be bolted on...although eventually that didn't help "him"  

Robert Hall wrote: Alexander...Jim's also taking about a multi-100lb (maybe 1000lb?) flake, not a handhold in a roof. Like NH's "Old Man of the Mountains" , it needs to be bolted on...although eventually that didn't help "him"  

Welk yeah, the really big features which are dubious (like 6ft wide and 10ft high I've resorted to chaining them on since you'll have problems drilling right through, you need a fairly muscular drill if it's going to be 3ft through. So I fit a bolt in the flake and one beside it joined by chain. Puzzles climbers who can't work out what sort of lower-off it is though!

Jim Titt wrote:

 So I fit a bolt in the flake and one beside it joined by chain. Puzzles climbers who can't work out what sort of lower-off it is though!

Now that's funny! 

Here´s some suitably long bolts I just shipped to Iceland. 10mm stock 600mm long.

Jim, I've used 3/8 stainless-steel rod for this purpose, drilled at a downward angle so that the glue on the rod is just an extra measure, but not necessary for the reinforcement to work. The local Lowe's carries bits long enough to set a 12" rod just below the surface, then patch the hole. As other have noted, it's hard to get much glue into the very back of the hole, past the gap. On a large feature I will use two rods, drilled at different angles, so even with no glue, pulling the flake off the wall would require both rods to bend. 

Wouldnt installing two bolts at opposing 45degree angles essentially lock it in place. The bolts would have to fail. Especially if it were drilled 45 degrees horizontal as well as vertically. Old carpenter skills haha

J Achey wrote: Jim, I've used 3/8 stainless-steel rod for this purpose, drilled at a downward angle so that the glue on the rod is just an extra measure, but not necessary for the reinforcement to work. The local Lowe's carries bits long enough to set a 12" rod just below the surface, then patch the hole. As other have noted, it's hard to get much glue into the very back of the hole, past the gap. On a large feature I will use two rods, drilled at different angles, so even with no glue, pulling the flake off the wall would require both rods to bend. 

If you drill 12mm 1/2" you can slide resin capsules down the bottom of the hole.

Well, I can report success. I used 3/8 threaded rod. There was no space between the flake and the wall, so the sika I squeezed into the hole was pushed back way deep into the hole when I inserted the rod. My issue was trying to get the rod all the way in...there was so much glue deep in the hole that the rod would bounce when I hammered it. I solved this by pushing the rod in, pulling it out, wiping it off, and repeating. Eventually it all worked.

All the places on the flake where you can possibly get your fingers in, I pumped in sika. So these “pull points” are bomber now. Tapping on those locations sounds like bedrock now. The rod is a backup, providing extra security just in case.

Anyway, you can’t visually see that anything was done to the flake. 

Nice, Jim. You might have saved a life. The glue in your "pull points" probably won't do jack for very long, and is probably just glueing dirt to dirt, but it can't hurt. For your next mercy mission, it helps to spin the threaded rod to draw the glue up out of the back of the hole.

J Achey wrote: Nice, Jim. You might have saved a life. The glue in your "pull points" probably won't do jack for very long, and is probably just glueing dirt to dirt, but it can't hurt. For your next mercy mission, it helps to spin the threaded rod to draw the glue up out of the back of the hole.

The pull points were cleaned thoroughly with tiny brushes deep in...worked beautifully. The spin trick...good one. I’ll try that next time. 

Jim Lawyer wrote: Well, I can report success. I used 3/8 threaded rod. There was no space between the flake and the wall, so the sika I squeezed into the hole was pushed back way deep into the hole when I inserted the rod. My issue was trying to get the rod all the way in...there was so much glue deep in the hole that the rod would bounce when I hammered it. I solved this by pushing the rod in, pulling it out, wiping it off, and repeating. Eventually it all worked.

All the places on the flake where you can possibly get your fingers in, I pumped in sika. So these “pull points” are bomber now. Tapping on those locations sounds like bedrock now. The rod is a backup, providing extra security just in case.

Anyway, you can’t visually see that anything was done to the flake. 

Good work, sounds perfect and thanks for fixing it!

Just for future reference, the "bouncing" of the rod is usually due to an air bubble in the glue.    What seems to work best is to pull out the rod (which you did) but only wipe the top side of it to create a channel for the air to escape without removing as much glue.  Once you have the rod all the way into the hole, spin it to get a good coating.

John Byrnes wrote:

Good work, sounds perfect and thanks for fixing it!

Just for future reference, the "bouncing" of the rod is usually due to an air bubble in the glue.    What seems to work best is to pull out the rod (which you did) but only wipe the top side of it to create a channel for the air to escape without removing as much glue.  Once you have the rod all the way into the hole, spin it to get a good coating.

Good call. Next time. Thanks John et al.

Would love to see photos of this. There's a couple places at a local area that have had this done, and its almost invisible to the untrained eye.

Yes... photos please. Worth a thousand words and all...