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New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #11

Idaho Bob · · McCall, ID · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 757

I'll be at City of Rocks June 13 to 22, perhaps a bit longer for the annual summer solstice gathering.

An example of how to discourage out of state "intruders":  a few weeks ago a private plane from Seattle (one of the original hot spots) landed at McCall airport.  Met by three police cars, police informed the passengers that their visit was not "essential" and that they had to depart.  Plane returned to Seattle.  But with things starting to open up as of today, there is some risk to McCall as visitors from Boise drive up to their weekend homes.  

Lori Milas · · Joshua Tree, CA · Joined Apr 2017 · Points: 240

Don't bother with this post unless you want more info on collagen.  This is from a paid subscription site so I cannot post the link--it's just a few of many pages on this subject.  

Forms of collagen: Collagen hydrolysate (also called hydrolyzed collagen or collagen peptides) is collagen that has been broken down (often with heat and enzymes) into smaller fragments of protein, or peptides. This makes the peptides more absorbable and allows them to mix into cold as well as hot liquids. Collagen that has been only partially hydrolyzed is known as gelatin, in which the collagen fibers (made of a three strands twisted into a helix) are unraveled and become globular. However, gelatin will only dissolve in hot water and won't easily mix into cold water. Collagen is also sold in a raw "undenatured" form. An example of this is the proprietary ingredient UC-II, which is, essentially, cartilage from chicken breast -- which is why only about 25% of UC-II is collagen, with the rest being other components of cartilage, such as glycosaminoglycans. The makers of UC-II claim that the undenatured collagen in UC-II differs from hydrolyzed or denatured collagen because it contains active immune modulators that reduce the secretion of enzymes that break down type II collagen, thereby slowing the inflammatory response. Undenatured collagen, gelatin, and collagen hydrolysate may all be broken down in the gut to yield absorbable amino acids, although studies in mice have suggested that absorption may be greater with collagen hydrolysate, due to its smaller molecular size. However, a study in healthy young men showed the bioavailability of amino acids from hydrolyzed collagen peptide powder was not significantly greater than that from an equal amount (20 grams) of gelatin (both were mixed in about 1¼ cup of warm water). The men also found the gelatin slightly more palatable than the peptides and, considering it was only one-quarter the cost of the peptides, 93% said they would be willing to pay for the gelatin versus only 60% for the peptides if they knew the powders were beneficial. (Alcock, Front Nutr 2019).

What It Does: As with other proteins, most of the collagen you consume will be broken down into individual amino acids during digestion. In addition to being a source of protein, there is preliminary evidence that some collagen peptides may remain intact as they are absorbed, and can accumulate in skin and cartilage (Iwai, J Agric Food Chem 2005; Oesser, J Nutr 1999). As discussed below, there is some evidence to suggest that certain types of collagen may modestly help to improve the appearance of aging skin or reduce the pain of knee osteoarthritis.

For Skin and Joints | ConsumerLab.com consumerlab.com/results/pri… 5/6 [Note: The 2016 study above reported that 40 mg of UC-II provided 1.2 mg of undenatured type II collagen as determined by a "newly developed and validated extraction" protocol, while the earlier studies reported that 40 mg of UC-II provided 10 mg of undenatured type II collagen (as we confirmed in this Review). A subsequently published letter by the author (who works for the manufacturer, Lonza) explained that the material in the study (and in UC-II in supplements) did not change: The 2016 study applied a modified testing procedure that provides less extraction time before the collagen is measured, so a lower amount of collagen is reported (Lugo, J Int Soc Sports Nutr 2019).] A study in which 1,200 mg of a collagen hydrolysate (collagen peptide) (Genacol) was taken daily for six months showed a reduction in pain among 51.6% of those taking the collagen versus 36.5% of those taking placebo, a statistically significant difference. There was no significant difference after only 3 months (Bruyere, Comp Ther in Med 2012). A small study published in 2014 in people with knee osteoarthritis found that taking 5,000 mg of collagen hydrolysate dissolved in a cup of water or milk in the morning and at night after food daily for 13 weeks significantly improved symptoms compared to taking a placebo (Kumar, J Sci Food Agric 2014). Another 13-week study suggested greater benefit with collagen hydrolysate (also 10 grams daily) than with a more common supplement for osteoarthritis, glucosamine sulfate (Trc, Intl Orthop 2011). However, there was no placebo control, so it is not possible to know if either treatment was truly effective.

A three-month study in the Netherlands among 167 men and women with self-reported knee pain (not caused by rheumatoid arthritis or other inflammatory disease) found that a daily dose of 10,000 mg of collagen peptides (dissolved in water and consumed with breakfast) did not reduce knee pain or improve knee function, nor did it reduce blood markers of inflammation or cartilage breakdown, compared to placebo. The collagen peptides consisted of proline/hydroxyproline (23%), glycine (21%), glutamic acid (12%), arginine (8%), alanine (8%) and essential amino acids (16%). The study was funded by the maker of the collagen (Peptan B2000, Rousselot, Belgium) (Bongers, Appl Physiol Nutr Metab 2020). A similar ingredient from the same manufacturer is sold as Peptan in the U.S. Reductions in joint pain have been modest at best with eggshell membrane hydrolysates, which naturally contain type I collagen, elastin, and small amounts of glucosamine and chondroitin. A study among 80 men and women (average age 53) with self-reported knee pain found that, overall, 450 mg per day of a chicken eggshell membrane hydrolysate (BiovaFlex by Biova LLC, which funded the study) was no more effective than placebo in improving pain, stiffness or function, as there were similar improvements in both groups. However, the researchers then performed a sub-analysis showing that those who began the study with the most difficulty walking 5/1/2020 Review of Collagen Supplements - For Skin and Joints | ConsumerLab.com consumerlab.com/results/pri… 6/6 experienced somewhat more improvement with BiovaFlex versus placebo in knee stiffness and walking distance. According to Biova's website, BiovaFlex is >15% collagen, >20% elastin, and >5% glycosaminoglycans (Hewlings, J Med Food 2019). One product tested in this review, Ancient Nutrition Multi Collagen Protein, is listed as containing collagen from eggshell membrane. A double-blind, randomized study in Turkey in which another hydrolyzed eggshell membrane supplement, NEM (Natural Eggshell Membrane, ESM Technologies, LLC), was given to 161 men and women (average age 57) with mild to moderate knee osteoarthritis for one month found that it modestly improved knee function and reduced pain and stiffness, but did not improve flexion or range of motion, or reduce the use of pain medication (Tylenol) compared to placebo. The supplement was given as one 500-mg capsule of eggshell membrane hydrolysate taken with water once daily at breakfast. Supplements that contain this ingredient include Healthy Origins Natural Eggshell Membrane and Natural Factors NEM. Mild side effects such as rash and nausea were reported in three participants who took NEM (Eskiyurt, J Arthritis 2019). Building muscle and muscle strength: There is some evidence collagen may help to build muscle and increase muscle strength in older adults when combined with exercise — although this is not surprising considering that other sources of proteincan achieve the same effect. In a study among older men (average age 72) with sarcopenia (age-related muscle loss) who participated in a strength training program three days per week for 3 months, those who consumed a daily drink containing 15 grams of collagen peptides (BODYBALANCE, GELITA AG) had significantly greater increases in lean muscle mass and muscle strength compared to those who consumed a placebo drink (Zdzieblik, Br J Nutr 2015). However, if you are looking to supplement to build muscle, you may be better off with a protein powder because collagen is not particularly high the in branched chain amino acids (valine, leucine, and isoleucine) that are needed for muscle maintenance. In fact, a study among older women doing resistance exercise showed whey protein to be much more effective at building muscle than collagen protein. Collagen also tends to be more expensive than a protein powder: Our Protein Powder Review shows that you can get 20 grams of a good protein powder for as little as 40 to 50 cents, while the lowest cost for 20 grams of collagen is at least...

Collagen hydrolysate is a nutritional supplement that may benefit cartilage tissue in joints. In a randomized, placebocontrolled study involving healthy college athletes with joint pain, 10 g daily of collagen hydrolysate appeared to effectively reduce the pain over a 24 week period.

Carl Schneider · · Mount Torrens, South Australia · Joined Dec 2017 · Points: 0
dragons wrote:

Carl, what types of doses are we talking about? Did you also lay off climbing, or did you keep climbing throughout?

I stopped climbing. I couldn't climb at all. I don't know what dose actually, I pretty much doubled the recommended dose. BTW, I think you mentioned above about protein powder, and feeling stronger but feeling that may have been a placebo effect. Some studies I've read suggest there's certainly an effect on muscle size but no correlation to increased strength in protein supplements for those lifting weights. Also, interestingly, it doesn't matter when you ingest your protein as long as you get enough... 

Carl Schneider · · Mount Torrens, South Australia · Joined Dec 2017 · Points: 0

Feeling almost perfectly 50% sad and 50% OK.
The strange state of Carl.
Climbing tomorrow so I'll settle down a bit...

I Don't

I don't know what to say,
I don't know what to do,
I'm feeling pretty good,
I'm feeling a bit younger,
I'm feeling like I'm new.

At times I feel quite vibrant,
I feel orange, red and blue,
I want to go back then,
When first I did meet you.

I was very, very young,
And so,
A bit,
Were you,
We loved each others' company,
We were just us,
Us two.

dragons · · New Paltz, NY · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 872

Lori, sounds like there's potential for collagen, but no solid evidence (as so often seems to be the case with supplements).

Carl, maybe I'll try more Vitamin C. Overall seems pretty harmless even if taken in excess. I don't eat much citrus, but I do get lots of greens.

The one supplement that a doctor once recommended to me was biotin for my fingernails. They were becoming more fragile, and had developed fine vertical ridges. Doc had no explanation for the ridges (kind of looked at me like I had three heads because of my concern), but did say that biotin was proven to improve fingernail strength. I started taking biotin, and it did seem to help. My nails don't tear as easily as they used to. The ridges didn't go away, though.

Dallas R · · Traveling the USA · Joined May 2013 · Points: 191

Rainy day... What to do?  Clean out the book shelf... Ok.  

One of the great things about it was we got to reminisce about our travels and places we have climbed.  We only culled about a third of our books.  We kept everything for Utah, and the western US states so the culled list wasn't too big.  I am listing them here first.  If any one wants one or wants to know more about it communicate, otherwise they will hit the recycle bin in a couple of weeks, basically yours for the price of postage.

In a week or so I will list them in the for sale section.

Rock Climbing Montana, Falcon
Crack Climbing by Falcon
Rock Climbs of the Easter Big Horn (Montana)
Austin Climbing, Gnarly Press
Rock Climbing Arizona, Falcon
Rock and Road, Falcon 2nd edition
Lander Rock Climbs, 2015
Rock Climbing, Mastering Basic Skills, Craig Luebben
Rock Climbing New Mexico and Texas, Falcon
Enchanted Rock Climbers Guide, Sharp Ends
ATV Trail Guide, Moab
Essentials of River Kayaking
Mushrooms of the North West
Rock Climbs of Acadia
Book of Yoga, Christina Brown

Carl Schneider · · Mount Torrens, South Australia · Joined Dec 2017 · Points: 0
dragons wrote: Lori, sounds like there's potential for collagen, but no solid evidence (as so often seems to be the case with supplements).

Carl, maybe I'll try more Vitamin C. Overall seems pretty harmless even if taken in excess. I don't eat much citrus, but I do get lots of greens.

The one supplement that a doctor once recommended to me was biotin for my fingernails. They were becoming more fragile, and had developed fine vertical ridges. Doc had no explanation for the ridges (kind of looked at me like I had three heads because of my concern), but did say that biotin was proven to improve fingernail strength. I started taking biotin, and it did seem to help. My nails don't tear as easily as they used to. The ridges didn't go away, though.

I've got vertical ridges in my fingernails too. I think it's normal. I take magnesium on climbing days too... 

Lori Milas · · Joshua Tree, CA · Joined Apr 2017 · Points: 240

I just realized this morning that my attitude stinks.  I don't know where the gratitude went, but I do think isolation and sheltering has finally gotten to me.  Tony and I drove around yesterday, just to get out of the house, and we drove by all the shops and stores that have now been closed for several months... some closed for good.  "It's like a ghost town."  

So, maybe we're a little antsy and need to get some stoke back.  I'm trusting it will come back one day soon.  How's everyone else doing?

I've been taking long walks most mornings before dawn... it's kind of bittersweet to think of the hundreds of times I have walked through these fields of lupine, watching little gulls run ahead of me squawking and flapping... occasionally a coyote trotting a safe distance away.  I have noticed lately that someone is leaving rocks tucked here and there, every day some new ones.  Someone has to be sitting at home painting these rocks with words of encouragement for someone like me to see along the way.  There are now dozens...

And then there's the beauty of the foothills... and my grandkids.  Maybe I need to work on my attitude a bit.    



Oldtradguy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 15

Lori

Keep the faith.

Jean and I will go climb at the local park Monday since they have opened it up. We are lucky that it is only 7 miles from us. My finger tips were sore from climbing last week. I need to get more callus on them. I am also trying to lose my dunlap disease. I have lost about 6 pounds and finally got below 160.

Last week we painted the basement walls and trim. This week I hope to spackle and tape the garage and put up shelving in the shed.

The deer are not afraid of us when they come into the yard. We had put up a fence around the garden to stop them from eating there. Some things are now starting to grow.

Here is a picture of one of them eating the buds off of the blueberry bush. I have deer netting that we will put up around the blueberries.


The other day we had about 11 deer in the back and side yard.


We also had a local fox in the front yard last week. I did not get a chance to take its picture.

Stay healthy and safe.

John
Oldtradguy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 15

Here is something to brighten up your day, hopefully.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fn8MxJx_erk

John

Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349

Lori- Right now the attitude of our Nation is as grimbo as I have ever experienced. That includes Nam and the draft. Americans don’t do well when we are ordered around. Especially when the need is not apparent- the CDC needed to revise the Death Toll down yesterday- our beloved police are standing in ranks to force everyone back inside!
Lots of government types making dire predictions that haven’t yet come true. Our news media has been outright lying to us for four years, and now when we need to know the real truth who do we believe???

Pretty natural to be depressed. 

Dallas R · · Traveling the USA · Joined May 2013 · Points: 191

We have seen the rock thing pretty much everywhere in the last couple of years.  There are even clubs that have rock finding contests, once you find a rock you post it on the club page and then move it to see if someone else will find it.  Some are pretty extravagant art.  Fidalgo Rocks is one such group we have run across.

We are going back on the road.  Headed toward Okanagan, WA.  It's going to be a slow journey as things aren't completely open.  Gas stations will be easy to protect/sanitize. RV parks and private campgrounds require you to be self contained.  Public campgrounds are struggling with opening, they can't justify letting only self contained campers in without allowing tenters and vanlife in also, but how to keep the restrooms sanitized?  NF has same problem with trailhead restrooms, not that sanitation standards were ever very high in them.

Got a pizza yesterday, ordered it online, picked it up at the curb, ate it in the truck.  Grocery store will continue to be our most hazardous interaction. I am so thankful that our lifestyle is "out doorsy".  I cannot imagine how horrible it would be to live in a city these days.  

We are thinking climbing in the Okanagan area will be ok.  It's not super popular and pretty spread out.  I am betting we don't see any other climbers while there.  Very little virus there.  I have been trying to get a definitive answer about virus life on rock, lots of mixed results.  As far as I can tell the virus does not live well without humans.   

dragons · · New Paltz, NY · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 872
Carl Schneider wrote:

I've got vertical ridges in my fingernails too. I think it's normal. I take magnesium on climbing days too... 

Hey Carl, Maybe it's normal, but I'm suspicious that it's a sign there's something wrong. My uncle lived into his 90s and had perfectly smooth nails. So why do some people have ridges and other people don't? I thought it might show some malfunction in the way your body builds up protein-based structures. And that could have something to do with other weaknesses that I seem to have in tendons and ligaments, as well. Some lucky people seem to never have this type of problem.

I also take magnesium, but not too regularly. I eat a lot of green smoothies so I think I get enough magnesium. But I haven't tracked it in a few years.
dragons · · New Paltz, NY · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 872
Guy Keesee wrote: Lori- Right now the attitude of our Nation is as grimbo as I have ever experienced. That includes Nam and the draft. Americans don’t do well when we are ordered around. Especially when the need is not apparent- the CDC needed to revise the Death Toll down yesterday- our beloved police are standing in ranks to force everyone back inside!
Lots of government types making dire predictions that haven’t yet come true. Our news media has been outright lying to us for four years, and now when we need to know the real truth who do we believe???

Pretty natural to be depressed. 

Guy, Could you please link to the source where it says the CDC revised the death toll down?

I think it's too bad that you feel that the entire news media are lying wholesale. There are many different sources of news. Journalism, in general, is a very noble profession. I guess you disagree.
Lori Milas · · Joshua Tree, CA · Joined Apr 2017 · Points: 240

Hmmm. We’ve managed over close to11,000 posts to not get political.  We’ve had a couple brushes with it, but manage to set it aside for the sake of loving our climbing community.  And personally I think there is some validity to both sides of this COVID conversation. 

Personally it hasn’t bothered me at all to comply with shelter rules for a time.  I’ve listened to too many doctors on the front lines and patients who have survived this virus to trust that it’s a disease I don’t want.  (BTW, the CDC did not revise their numbers downward... that was a rumor that was quashed and I’m happy to provide citations if needed.).

But as climbers we have some decisions to make. I’m not worried at all about this virus being somehow transmitted to a rock.  It would seem chances are far greater being injured climbing... THAT would be the greater risk and no one seems to mind that.  I was able to get out a few times in April... with someone who had been home alone for weeks and had not been sick in ages.  I paid close attention to how close we interacted and was surprised to see that it was the norm to stand 8-10 feet apart.  We actually never got closer.  Climbing feels so up close and personal but actually we never touch.  Surprising!  In my opinion there was NO harm in those few hours out on the rock. 

My growing concerns now (for me personally) are around my need for vigorous hard exercise and especially that which works my lungs—it keeps asthma and respiratory infections at bay.  I thrive on sunshine and hard physical work... I sleep better. Feel better, my blood sugar is so much better.  Sitting inside is doing me no good.  

I guess this is a day by day thing for each of us.  Glad we’re here to offer up support, humor and cheer during this time.  I feel like we are starting to think about getting back to normal again. 

Bob Gaines · · Joshua Tree, CA · Joined Dec 2001 · Points: 7,900

Hi Lori, unfortunately I think the virus can survive, for a short period of time (hours), on handholds, if they're in the shade. But even if the route has been climbed multiple times the same day (like on a popular route) I think the chance of getting it this way is very small, and can be mitigated by using liquid chalk and using hand sanitizer when you get down off of a route. And not touching your face. Friction Labs is now making a 90% alcohol-based liquid chalk, which I have no doubt all the gyms will make mandatory once they re-open.

It's pretty easy to manage in a toprope situation, one-on-one, to social distance, so you're OK there. The problem will be for guided climbing (ie. lead/following) where your're touching the same gear. Just about every time I've guided a client for a full day who actively had the symptoms of a cold, guess what, I've gotten the cold!

As guides we will soon be facing a dilemma: Protecting ourselves and protecting our clients. A full-time working guide at Joshua Tree, for example, will climb with different people, from all over the country, day after day, getting exposure, and passing that same exposure on to every person they come into contact with, day after day. So this will be difficult, to figure out risk mitigation in these challenging times.

PS. You probably don't want to get into political discussions on this forum....or you won't all stay friends!

Carl Schneider · · Mount Torrens, South Australia · Joined Dec 2017 · Points: 0
dragons wrote:

Hey Carl, Maybe it's normal, but I'm suspicious that it's a sign there's something wrong. My uncle lived into his 90s and had perfectly smooth nails. So why do some people have ridges and other people don't? I thought it might show some malfunction in the way your body builds up protein-based structures. And that could have something to do with other weaknesses that I seem to have in tendons and ligaments, as well. Some lucky people seem to never have this type of problem.

I also take magnesium, but not too regularly. I eat a lot of green smoothies so I think I get enough magnesium. But I haven't tracked it in a few years.

Hmm. Considering I've snapped the ACL in my right knee (almost 30 years ago), a tendon on my left knee and both long head biceps tendons maybe you're on to something there... 

Andrew Rice · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 11
Bob Gaines wrote: Hi Lori, unfortunately I think the virus can survive, for a short period of time (hours), on handholds, if they're in the shade. But even if the route has been climbed multiple times the same day (like on a popular route) I think the chance of getting it this way is very small, and can be mitigated by using liquid chalk and using hand sanitizer when you get down off of a route. And not touching your face. Friction Labs is now making a 90% alcohol-based liquid chalk, which I have no doubt all the gyms will make mandatory once they re-open.

It's pretty easy to manage in a toprope situation, one-on-one, to social distance, so you're OK there. The problem will be for guided climbing (ie. lead/following) where your're touching the same gear. Just about every time I've guided a client for a full day who actively had the symptoms of a cold, guess what, I've gotten the cold!

As guides we will soon be facing a dilemma: Protecting ourselves and protecting our clients. A full-time working guide at Joshua Tree, for example, will climb with different people, from all over the country, day after day, getting exposure, and passing that same exposure on to every person they come into contact with, day after day. So this will be difficult, to figure out risk mitigation in these challenging times.

PS. You probably don't want to get into political discussions on this forum....or you won't all stay friends!

FWIW, Bob, in all the analysis of transmissions in China, they've only found one instance where it was passed outdoors. While I don't doubt that if an actively infected person sneezed right on a cam and then a person handled that cam a few minutes later and touched their face/mouth it is THEORETICALLY possible to transmit, I doubt it's a very likely way to transmit it. I'd be much more worried about the car ride there or sharing water or something like that, which is totally common in my pre Covid climbing world. 

Bob Gaines · · Joshua Tree, CA · Joined Dec 2001 · Points: 7,900

I hope you're right about that Senor, but not so sure. NOLS, Outward Bound, the AMGA, etc. have all cancelled their outdoor classes, some all the way through the summer months. I agree that travelling in an enclosed space (car, airplane, etc.) would probably be the most likely way to get it through airborne transmission. Not so sure I'd trust data/analysis coming out of China.

Is your thinking that the virus is transmitted primarily by airborne droplets/particles that someone breathes in, as opposed to someone touching a surface with virus on it then touching their face?

It will be interesting to see how climbing gyms deal with mitigation as they open up.

Lori Milas · · Joshua Tree, CA · Joined Apr 2017 · Points: 240
Senor Arroz wrote:

FWIW, Bob, in all the analysis of transmissions in China, they've only found one instance where it was passed outdoors. While I don't doubt that if an actively infected person sneezed right on a cam and then a person handled that cam a few minutes later and touched their face/mouth it is THEORETICALLY possible to transmit, I doubt it's a very likely way to transmit it. I'd be much more worried about the car ride there or sharing water or something like that, which is totally common in my pre Covid climbing world. 


Senor, reassuring words.  Thank you!  

I don't mean to be selfish about this. I know everyone is tired of the very real threats of a 'global pandemic', and everyone misses climbing.  I'm trying not to get too freaked out about the fact that I'm 10 days away from moving to my favorite spot on the planet... and the point of that was to blast off into some real and focused climbing.  It's all been cancelled.  I don't know when/if we'll have it again.

Bob, I just can't hear this now.  I believe we will figure it out... we all are going to figure things out.  It's going to work out, even if we cannot see quite how just yet.  

While climbing may be risky... here's what I think is real risk:  Tony and I were in Costco today... there were a few things we couldn't get anywhere else.  We masked up, brought our sanitizers... prepared to get in and out.  There had to be 500 people in that store.  The store rules change tomorrow... everyone will have to have face covering tomorrow.  But today, we were standing next to several couples who seemed to be enjoying their last day of uncovered faces.  The whole outing felt risky to me.  

But I believe we'll figure out new rules, and new ways to move forward.  

--------------------------

I have been packing and clearing my garage today.  I have already thrown out or donated half of everything I own.  It's been almost a year now of sorting and tossing... and figuring out how to part with things that were part of my family.  And yet I can see that I have to pare it down by half again... and fast.  What I thought I urgently needed last month (pictures of my mother, Erin's first baby dress...) I can do without today.  

That's what this virus thing seems to be offering us, as a gift.  We are learning was is 'essential'... what is absolutely important, and what can be dispensed with.  I hope that what is left is beautiful... what truly serves us and brings joy.  The rest is clutter.  And so it is with climbing, too.  For me, climbing is 'essential'... but maybe not in every way I've had it.  Once again the universe is encouraging us to grow up, become self-sufficient.

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