More Tensleep Drama

Andrew McQ wrote:

 

Be honest with yourselves: do you ENJOY grabbing holds that are so sharp it hurts to climb? 

Yes. I enjoy the process of growing skin and having to judge how hard to pull and when to stop when my skin is getting bad. It's part of the game. Not kidding or exaggerating at all. But that's just me.

Deez Nuts wrote:  You didn't mention Mt Potasi, likely because it fucking sucks to climb there. It sucked the first day but I gave it another shot. It still sucks and always will.

Mt Potasi is fine. not great, good fun, and fine. the only thing that sucks is the hike.

I havnt been to Tensleep, i had someone run me through 1st hand what it looks like. I feel like for me. the issue is not the route, its the privateer in the public land looking to make a buck.

So what are the standards and who is the arbiter? Do we tolerate/encourage all random schmucks to chop any route that is suspected of having a manufactured/glued hold?  Perhaps that is the only concrete standard that all can abide by. 

grey areas are what makes us human. I personally feel its the quality of the sausage made. if the sausage sucks... take it off the shelf.

 I have been informed.

the routes blow.
they are not fun
they look bad
they are not managing crowds at all
they are there to make Louie money...

not so into that. blanket statements about all limestone, all development tactics, all enhancement all glue.  not into that... it needs to climb well

Noah R wrote:

Anyone else Lol at this?

Thanks for bolding so people understand  the point i am belaboring. 

EFS wrote:

lemme play devils advocate.......so its ok to chip, glue and manufacture holds and drill pockets if its a hard route in the end......

?????

To answer your question. Yes, it is perfecrly acceptable to manufacturer when it is a community development accepted by the community.

For whatever reason you people don't understand how bad it is/was. It has offended a LARGE group of people and does not fit withim the 10z ethos.

I did not partake in the removal of these routes but I fully support it! 

Potasi sucks. The routes are shit. I'd hate to see that happen to ten sleep. If you haven't seen the shit Gluey did un Cali you should so we are all on the same page. It sounds like Gluey is still on the same page, or maybe even flipped back a few.

Rob warden The space lizard wrote:

At mount Charleston yes

so what about the routes that are say, 5.10 at charleston.....im gonna go out on a limb here and say that i think you dont consider a 10 hard, correct?  

The plot thickens.

​Statement from the climbers who removed manufactured holds and controversial routes in Ten Sleep Canyon​​​

Russ B wrote: The plot thickens.

Statement from the climbers who removed manufactured holds and controversial routes in Ten Sleep Canyon

Works for me, but something more formal than vigilente justice is going to be needed going forward.

Copy/pasting the statement here from the 18 anonymous climbers responsible for a the bolt chopping:

"Last week a group of 18 climbers from 5 states came together to search Ten Sleep for heavily manufactured routes. Between all 18 climbers we total over 100 years of climbing in Ten Sleep, Wyoming.

After identifying dozens of routes that would not be climbable without a series of manufactured holds, we elected to strip the bolts and hangers from these routes. The routes that were removed were not a case of one or two drilled pockets but sometimes up to ten or twelve drilled pockets or deeply chiseled holds. Some routes may have had as many as 20 manufactured holds. All of these routes had been labeled as “manufactured” on Mountain Project or Rakkup, both of which were used during the initial research phase of these routes and verified first-hand before taking any action.

Many manufactured routes were left untouched for the simple reason that the natural features were enhanced to such an extreme degree that they could never be returned to their original state. These routes were essentially “downgraded” from their natural state to much easier climbing grades.

Even after this work there are so many remaining manufactured routes in the canyon that it would still take weeks to remove them all. In an effort and help identify routes that are heavily manufactured we have placed red locks on the first bolts. We hope that these red locks will discourage climbers from trafficking these routes.

With climbing gaining popularity at such a rapid rate it is important that we maintain our relationships with the U.S. Forest Service and do not violate our public lands in this way. These are shared resources, they belong to all of us and land managers at all levels have placed their trust in us. We cannot take that responsibility lightly.

For those that have chosen to take a stance against the removal of these routes: We understand your argument, we hear you. This conversation is bigger than these routes that were removed, it is bigger than a single crag or even the entire Ten Sleep Canyon. Our message is singular: Manufacturing and chipping is not accepted in Ten Sleep, Wyoming, and it should not be acceptable in the sport of climbing.

We are sorry that your project is gone, we are sorry your favorite route doesn’t exist anymore. The truth is that they never existed in the first place. They were chipped and drilled into existence with blatant disregard for the ethics of the landscape as well as the sport that we all love.”

rgold wrote:

Works for me, but something more formal than vigilente justice is going to be needed going forward.

Why? You have a tribe here taking care of things 'in house', so to speak. 

Action. And not anonymously in the dark of night.

So, when you want something more formal, what is that?
Something written down? A mission statement or a decree?
Believing shit written down on a piece of paper will actually bind people is a relic from elementary school.
It's all imaginary. Action is what is real.
Do No Harm, But Take No Shit is the anarchists creed.
Anderson clearly committed harm by trashing the crags.
When confronted with someone doing harm, the take no shit side if the equation should be initiated.

This is an emerging paradigm for this century as a whole. Don't wait or delegate what needs to be done for some administrative or authority to come in and do the job. That was the 20th C model and look how fucked up that made everything. 

Nathan Witt wrote: I've been quietly following this ordeal since it unfolded on social media. I've only been to Ten Sleep a few times and am in no way a regular, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. The saddest part about this is the fact that the new generation of climbers is capable of slaying the 5.14+ grades with more frequency. Chipping holds just seems greedy and cheap. Anderson would rather drill/glue/chip holds to get his name on a route than allow someone who is actually capable of sending the true grade have at it. Know when to step aside to let others shine. From what I gather, he is a habitual offender when it comes to this behavior, stemming all the way back to his time in Cali. It's also upsetting to see that there is still a sizable group of climbers willing to condone this behavior and, in some cases, even praise him for it. Finally, given the outrage this has generated from the climbing community, it is kind of shocking to see that the guy's name is still on the So Ill site as a hold-designer. Ivan Greene was stripped of all of his sponsorships when exposed for chipping. How is this any different? Even if there are other routes with manufactured holds throughout the canyon, it's not on the same level as this guy. My vote would be to close the entirety of Funky Town to climbing as a reminder to follow ethics. Otherwise, people will start doing more of this with the same excuse as, "Well, it's already done, so let's just keep climbing it."

Hi Nathan, not to degrade your message AT ALL as from what you've said I am on your side here, but to clear up a point you made. Louie is described as a "hold-designer" referring to his work with manufactured climbing holds, I'm assuming they contract him to shape castings for plastic holds. Pretty sure (like 35% sure) he owns his own brand as well. Jason Kehl does it for SoIll too and posts on his insta story about the process, very cool satifying to watch.

EFS wrote:

so what about the routes that are say, 5.10 at charleston.....im gonna go out on a limb here and say that i think you dont consider a 10 hard, correct?  

No i dont.

 they dont have much/any work done  in terms of glue or drillwed pockets. other than banging off some crosleys and smoothing out the sharp bits they are natural

Brother Numsie wrote: Why? You have a tribe here taking care of things 'in house', so to speak.
Action. And not anonymously in the dark of night.

So, when you want something more formal, what is that?
Something written down? A mission statement or a decree?
Believing shit written down on a piece of paper will actually bind people is a relic from elementary school.
It's all imaginary. Action is what is real.
Do No Harm, But Take No Shit is the anarchists creed.
Anderson clearly committed harm by trashing the crags.
When confronted with someone doing harm, the take no shit side if the equation should be initiated.

This is an emerging paradigm for this century as a whole. Don't wait or delegate what needs to be done for some administrative or authority to come in and do the job. That was the 20th C model and look how fucked up that made everything. 

You've got your models kinda mixed up.  The in-house tribe takin' care of business is very much the 20th C model when it comes to bolts.

"Action is what is real," but anyone, and any group can act, and they all think they are in possession of revealed truth.  The rock-carvers think they are performing a public service too.  You end up with bolt wars that lead to nothing but more destruction, until the managers have had enough and kick the whole sorry lot off the premises.  Moreover, with no standards to appeal to, nothing written down, no mission statements, in short none of the things you heaped scorn on, even the Committee of 18 will find themselves in disagreement, or they will naturally disband over time and some new group dedicated to manufacturing routes will replace them.  That new group will also say things like "action is what is real" as they drill out longer and longer sequences of holds.

Look, as I said, I agree with the Committee of 18's actions, I'm just saying such efforts aren't going to provide an enduring solution to a problem that is rapidly getting worse.  In the long run, I think a ban of climbing will be the ultimate result of an anarchic approach, and we have the 3,000 routes lost in the Grampians as an example of what eventually happens.  If you are very lucky, it will happen after your climbing career is over and it will be somebody else's problem.

Chase Horn wrote:

..... Louie is described as a "hold-designer" referring to his work with manufactured climbing holds, I'm assuming they contract him to shape castings for plastic holds. Pretty sure (like 35% sure) he owns his own brand as well....

I had not heard this before, but a quick search shows Louie's background as a hold designer.  He has this company:

https://legacyholds.com/pages/our-story

Legacy Ascension is a hold company started by Louie Anderson out of a dusty barn in Ten Sleep, Wyoming. His vision for the company name from more than 20 years of innovating hold designs for over a dozen popular climbing hold brands. The idea is simple; build something that can be remembered as his greatest climbing hold designs.

And this Youtube interview intro (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFDY7GewuS4 ) says he "has been shaping holds probably longer than anyone in the world".

18 anonymous people pitched in and installed bright red locks on the cliff? I wonder how those locks look(think land manager)? Im thinking installing bright red locks was a really poorly thought out plan, hopefully the moron with the keys thinks about that.

Is it true Louie got himself shot?

Rob, you clearly haven't done all the 10s and 11s at Charleston. I have, and I did many moves skipping the CLEARLY drilled 3 finger pockets.

Gluey is just taking what he thinks is his genius hold shaping skills to the crags where everyone can enjoy them. Maybe if everone helped him realize his skills are mediocre at best he would stop? Or maybe he is the kind of person who will never hear that no matter how many people tell him?

"What will you leave behind?" From his website. He clearly thinks he is changing the world for the better. That makes me sad.

He even made his company have his same initials, LA. Maybe someone should tell him there is a whole state named after him where he can manufacture all the holds he wants.

m Mobes wrote: 18 anonymous people pitched in and installed bright red locks on the cliff? I wonder how those locks look(think land manager)? Im thinking installing bright red locks was a really poorly thought out plan, hopefully the moron with the keys thinks about that.

How is that different from redtagging a route you're working on?