Climbing with a pack

Mark Lide wrote: It’s pretty much impossible to climb anything big in EPC without a pack, in the summer at least. Climbing 12 pitches in 90 degree weather requires at least 2 liters which is pretty uncomfortable off a harness I imagine. 

Exactly. Even 3 pitches of 5.10 is quite different in 90 degrees than it is in 70 degrees.

Extra belay devices, usually three or four. 

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

I think Marks point is to think about why you are bringing all this crap with you on a 3 pitch route.  … it's usually beginners or those gear junkies who read the mags and carry everything the articles recommend.

There ya go.

Think for yourselves people. The level of sheep mentality I see these days truly frightens me.

Listen, I don’t really “care” if you choose to climb with a pack or not. It doesn’t bother me. But I do agree with Mark that everyone should think about it a little more. That’s the whole point of this thread.

Obviously there are times when climbing with a pack makes sense (and ultimately that is up to you to decide), but for the most part I think it’s really unnecessary. However, if you honestly think that you and your partner need to bring everything but the kitchen sink whenever you climb a multi-pitch route, that’s fine. My initial comment was really just an attempt to share some things that work for me in hopes that it would encourage people to consider a different way of doing things.

I used to think that climbing with a pack was the way to go because that’s what I saw others doing when I started climbing, but eventually I learned some new tactics from climbers better than myself, adapted them into my own system, and started climbing bigger and harder routes because of it, which I think is something pretty much everyone here wants to do... (right?)

Don’t just blindly follow someone else’s example/advice because they appear to be more experienced than you... Climbing is a thinking mans game and the climber that is able to look at these things critically and honestly is the one that will be successful and have the most fun, which is really all I want to see for everyone, regardless of what grade you’re climbing. 

Bill B wrote: You guys really don't recognize the impact of dehydration do you? http://www.sportscardiologybc.org/the-effects-of-hydration-on-athletic-performance/. For any type of multi-pitch that is either a) long , b) hard or c) some combination of both, you are going to want to bring water if nothing else.

Try pulling a 5.10 roof at the end of a long day while extracting gear while dehydrated. I've done it and it ain't easy. I also did it with a backpack on, and let's just say I'm glad I had to "lug" up a by-then empty water bottle instead of trying to pull the roof while even more dehydrated. That's the thing with water, if it's really weighing you down just drink it or pour it out, and then all of a sudden you're "light and fast" again.

Or maybe all you guys only climb in cool alpine environments where it's always 50 degrees with 0% humidity. For me most of the multi-pitch endeavors come when it's too hot to do hard boulders or sport.

The best place to carry water is in your belly. That said, I carry a 16 oz. Nalgene on route if it's hot or in the sun or really long. I just run a piece of webbing under the bottom and duct tape in place. Clip it to my harness haul loop. Sometimes I'll throw a little Gatorade powder in there too. 

Some routes just call for a pack, others will make you pay if you bring one.

If you are in a grovel sized offwidth, and that pack your trailing gets jammed, you will hate life. Now you have to either stop and free it, which may not be possible, or lower and re-climb the damn thing.  

I get that on longer climbs you need a pack. Everyone climbs with at least one pack on 15 pitch alpine. But climbing Empor on Cobb Rock with a pack is unneeded.

Jordan Cannon wrote: Listen, I don’t really “care” if you choose to climb with a pack or not. It doesn’t bother me. But I do agree with Mark that everyone should think about it a little more. That’s the whole point of this thread.

Obviously there are times when climbing with a pack makes sense (and ultimately that is up to you to decide), but for the most part I think it’s really unnecessary. However, if you honestly think that you and your partner need to bring everything but the kitchen sink whenever you climb a multi-pitch route, that’s fine. My initial comment was really just an attempt to share some things that work for me in hopes that it would encourage people to consider a different way of doing things.

I used to think that climbing with a pack was the way to go because that’s what I saw others doing when I started climbing, but eventually I learned some new tactics from climbers better than myself, adapted them into my own system, and started climbing bigger and harder routes because of it, which I think is something pretty much everyone here wants to do... (right?)

Don’t just blindly follow someone else’s example/advice because they appear to be more experienced than you... Climbing is a thinking mans game and the climber that is able to look at these things critically and honestly is the one that will be successful and have the most fun, which is really all I want to see for everyone, regardless of what grade you’re climbing. 

Thank you for this, Jordan. I agree that everyone should think and consider what works best for them.

I appreciate you sharing what works for you and I'm sure many people will want to try out your suggestions.

I don't believe that everyone here - or everyone who may google "climbing with a pack" and casually read this thread - wants to climb bigger and harder routes. I have a friend who used to run marathons. She pushed herself really hard to train, improve, and keep up with her marathoner friends. These days, she walks a lot and hikes casually. She said something I will never forget: "I discovered that I enjoy mild to moderate exercise best." There are many of us who feel that way about climbing. Some of us enjoy being outside, moving over beautiful rock in good company, without constantly seeking to push our limits of physical strength, courage, endurance, or suffering. And that's fine. There is room for all of us to be successful and have fun, however we define it.

I totally agree with not blindly following someone else's example because they appear to be more experienced (I'd add, or more hardcore) than you. 

The expression in UL backpacking is "packing your fears". for some, it may be just that. the idea of being hundreds of feet up and needing something.
with experience, you realize most of what you bring isn't gonna be used (to which some may say "rather have it and not need it, then need it and not have it") and if you really need something you brought to the base, it'll take like 10 minutes to rap and gather those items. OBVIOUSLY a wall in the backcountry or alpine with a several mile approach, where you carry over, will mean different tactics. 

Kyle Elliott wrote: The expression in UL backpacking is "packing your fears". for some, it may be just that. the idea of being hundreds of feet up and needing something.
with experience, you realize most of what you bring isn't gonna be used (to which some may say "rather have it and not need it, then need it and not have it") and if you really need something you brought to the base, it'll take like 10 minutes to rap and gather those items. OBVIOUSLY a wall in the backcountry or alpine with a several mile approach, where you carry over, will mean different tactics. 

I'm not going to rehash what's been said before, but I'm curious about this idea that you can just easily rap down to get something you need. Where do you climb? Are you assuming bolted rap anchors?

Around here rapping from partway up a climb is called "bailing";  is rarely done; is often not possible to do without double ropes, leaving gear, and/or interfering with other parties; and is sometimes not possible to do safely at all. 

L Kap wrote:

I'm not going to rehash what's been said before, but I'm curious about this idea that you can just easily rap down to get something you need. Where do you climb? Are you assuming bolted rap anchors?

Around here rapping from partway up a climb is called "bailing";  is rarely done; is often not possible to do without double ropes, leaving gear, and/or interfering with other parties; and is sometimes not possible to do safely at all. 

Mark's original post/point was 3 pitch routes you can rap. So.... Yeah. Just rap if you need something. 

I believe I included a caveat for objectives where you can't in both of my posts on the topic. 

I think after reading through all these posts: people that wear packs on a 3 pitch route are not climbing hard stuff for them, and that is OK. I like climbing cruiser routes sometimes too, I just don't wear a pack while doing it.

You don't see people wearing packs climbing Jules Verne or X-M.

Kyle Elliott wrote:

Mark's original post/point was 3 pitch routes you can rap. So.... Yeah. Just rap if you need something. 

I believe I included a caveat for objectives where you can't in both of my posts on the topic. 

So, just bail off the climb because you didn't want to carry a pack? 

L Kap wrote:

So, just bail off the climb because you didn't want to carry a pack? 

C'mon man. I mean if you have an emergency. The original question is wtf are you carrying in a pack on a 3 pitch route you can rap that you can't leave at the base/car/home? That was my point with packing your fears. If you can't finish a 3 pitch and rap down before you need your Clif bar, an extra layer, or pictures of your kids, then perhaps gain more experience on single pitch. Or hell... Give that 2 pitch a go. 

It's to make the IG photos look way more killer #tradisrad etc etc ;-) 

Buck Rio wrote: I think after reading through all these posts: people that wear packs on a 3 pitch route are not climbing hard stuff for them, and that is OK. I like climbing cruiser routes sometimes too, I just don't wear a pack while doing it.

You don't see people wearing packs climbing Jules Verne or X-M.

I wore a pack following T2, 11a in Eldo. To be fair, it's just one 11a move and I did pull on gear at the crux - that's a reachy power move right off the deck, and I am not tall. I dangled my pack in the weird squeeze section when we got off route at the upper ramp and found ourselves doing King Tut. If you know Redgarden wall and the Eldo guidebook, you know that it's complex terrain. I just looked back in my guidebook. The description of T2 is on page 160. King Tut - including the photo that shows how T2 and King Tut branch on the 3rd pitch - is on page 194. If you get off route and didn't photograph or photocopy the right pages, good luck figuring it out. We were glad to have the guidebook in my pack to get us back on route. We could have ended up on something much worse.

To wear or not to wear a pack is an individual choice based on so many factors. It's true that each individual can climb harder grades without the pack (so, yes, that means you're wearing a pack on a route that isn't the hardest thing you could climb pack-free), but person can climb at their personal physical limit with or without a pack.

 

Kyle Elliott wrote:

The original question is wtf are you carrying in a pack on a 3 pitch route you can rap that you can't leave at the base/car/home? That was my point with packing your fears. If you can't finish a 3 pitch and rap down before you need your Clif bar, an extra layer, or pictures of your kids, then perhaps gain more experience on single pitch. Or hell... Give that 2 pitch a go. 

I'm not packing fears. I'm packing things I know I am reasonably likely to want or need on the route. Or I'm carrying the pack for training and staying in the habit for longer objectives. Whatever. My choice is based on my body, my experience, and my climbing goals.

I see a couple of different positions represented in this thread by the anti-pack people: either a) everybody must climb as fast and light and as hard as they can all the time, and/or b) if you can't suffer through anything for three pitches, you don't deserve to climb the route. If that's your philosophy of climbing, great, do your thing. It's not how I choose to climb. 

No one that knows what they are about takes a guide book up a route. Copy the topo.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: No one that knows what they are about takes a guide book up a route. Copy the topo.

Thank you for saying that, that is exactly what I do. For a larger route I may even coat it in clear packing tape to give it some weather proofing.

L Kap wrote:

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I've been climbing trad since 2004 and have done hundreds of multi-pitch routes happily and safely, which is my definition of competency. I prefer to climb multi-pitch with a pack for multiple reasons. I know my body and my experiences. I don't prioritize speed and grades over safety and enjoyment. If I'm climbing at my limit on a Layton Kor 5.8 with a pack while you're over there pushing a 5.11 line without one, why do you care? I like having what I need with me, I like being accustomed to climbing with a pack for when I'm doing long alpine, and I like being able to help other climbers. On many on occasions on short multi-pitch, I have been off the ground and shared water, food, pain meds, sunscreen, guidebook, clean-up kit when someone touched poison ivy or rat poop, etc. Just last month a hail storm opened up over me while I was in the middle of pitch 2 of a 3-pitch alpine route. I was glad to have my rain jacket, even though according to the forecast I shouldn't have needed it. You don't have to have the same preferences I do, but this particular preference is not an indication of lack of experience or competence.  

As Mark said, he sees this regularly.   And as I said, you can fabricate all the excuses you want, but wearing a pack in this situation is generally an indication of incompetence.  

My point is, why do you care? Why does anyone feel the need to look down on another climber (or get "disheartened by [their] attitude") because they choose to climb with a pack?

I really don't care.  Why do you think I do?   Climb however you want.   I've had many experiences over the years where incompetent climbers caused problems for nearby parties.   They drop shit, they get on popular moderates and are so slow nobody else can get up it that day.  They get stranded and need rescue, they get injured and need rescue, they get lost... you name it.   So when I see a party putting packs on, I try to climb a route far away from them.

I am in general disheartened by the attitude that fast and light is the "one true way" of climbing. It may be trendy right now, but it's not the only legit way to climb. 

As I said, do whatever you want.  But light and fast has been around since the 80's, at least.  You live in Boulder and earlier in this thread mentioned a hailstorm.  Ho hum.   I can't count the number of thunder/hail/snow-storms I've sat through part-way through a long climb.    Of course, going light and fast, I often beat them to the top and was back on the ground before they hit.  That's my preference.

Three pitch checklist:

Buck Rio wrote:

Thank you for saying that, that [copy the topo] is exactly what I do. For a larger route I may even coat it in clear packing tape to give it some weather proofing.

So many contortions to avoid bringing a guidebook. It's so situational. Sure, if I leave the house knowing exactly what I am going to climb, e.g. I'm headed to a destination climb like Snake Dike, I could just copy a page or two. For areas with lots of choices, sometimes you figure out what you will climb on the fly depending on how many parties are trying to do the same route, weather conditions, etc. It's nice to be able to be flexible and adventurous. If the route is straight-forward and we're leaving stuff at the base, no need to bring the book up the climb. If the routes and crags are complex, unfamiliar, and/or offer a bunch of intersecting choices, I often bring it. It's nice to be at a belay and be able to say "that feature next door looks fun - what rating is it?"or "this crack is wet - what other options do I have?"