Redpoint vs Pinkpoint

Why do people tick "Redpoint" on single pitch sport climbs with fixed draws when "Pinkpoint" is an option on mountain project?

The distinction between redpointing versus pinkpointing in sport climbing died years ago. Is it now making a comeback? What next, you have to lower immediately to the ground each time you fall?

James Schroeder wrote: The distinction between redpointing versus pinkpointing in sport climbing died years ago. Is it now making a comeback? What next, you have to lower immediately to the ground each time you fall?

I don't care the ethic in which one decides to follow, but since we are given the "pinkpoint" option on mt proj why not use it when applicable?  

Matt Jones wrote:

I don't care the ethic in which one decides to follow, but since we are given the "pinkpoint" option on mt proj why not use it when applicable?  

Because some people don't care about the distinction, and are ticking things for their own benefit, rather than to provide maximal information about nuances of their sendage to interested and quite particular outsiders. 

 If there were some additional distinction you found totally meaningless, say the option to choose "redpoint", "pinkpoint" or "I hung the draws myself during the lead, except the first one, which my partner stick-clipped for me while I was dithering at the base of the route, in an attempt to get me on the rock faster", would you make sure to always click the last box when applicable?

Kedron Silsbee wrote:

Because some people don't care about the distinction, and are ticking things for their own benefit, rather than to provide maximal information about nuances of their sendage to interested and quite particular outsiders. 

 If there were some additional distinction you found totally meaningless, say the option to choose "redpoint", "pinkpoint" or "I hung the draws myself during the lead, except the first one, which my partner stick-clipped for me while I was dithering at the base of the route, in an attempt to get me on the rock faster", would you make sure to always click the last box when applicable?

For a single pitch sport climb with fixed draws, yes I mark pinkpoint.  For the latter no.

Matt Jones wrote: Why do people tick "Redpoint" on single pitch sport climbs with fixed draws when "Pinkpoint" is an option? 

If the draws are fixed, then you know that no one "redpointed" the route if you define it so that you need to hang the draws to redpoint (I imagine you know that vanishingly few sport climbers do define it that way, but that's not relevant to my point).  

So, you can just translate "redpoint" to "pinkpoint" on climbs with fixed draws, with no loss of information.

If the draws are not fixed, however, you are losing some information as most people just tick "redpoint."   What can you say--you're just going to have to live with the uncertainty as to whether the climber hung the draws, or I suppose you could reach out and ask any particular climber if you're really that curious.  (Even though I don't make the redpoint / pinkpoint distinction, I prob do remember when I put the draws on a climb at my limit and sometimes make a note of it when I tick--I did that just this week.)

But whether the climber hung the draws is just one piece of information that you don't know, and not really the most important one in my opinion.  E.g., how many tries did it take to redpoint (which would be more interesting to me)?  If MP gave an option to tick how many tries it took to redpoint, would you be upset if people didn't use that option?  

I suppose the bottom line is just what Kedron wrote.

pfwein wrote:

If the draws are fixed, then you know that no one "redpointed" the route if you define it so that you need to hang the draws to redpoint (I imagine you know that vanishingly few sport climbers do define it that way, but that's not relevant to my point).  

So, you can just translate "redpoint" to "pinkpoint" on climbs with fixed draws, with no loss of information.

If the draws are not fixed, however, you are losing some information as most people just tick "redpoint."   What can you say--you're just going to have to live with the uncertainty as to whether the climber hung the draws, or I suppose you could reach out and ask any particular climber if you're really that curious.  (Even though I don't make the redpoint / pinkpoint distinction, I prob do remember when I put the draws on a climb at my limit and sometimes make a note of it when I tick--I did that just this week.)

But whether the climber hung the draws is just one piece of information that you don't know, and not really the most important one in my opinion.  E.g., how many tries did it take to redpoint (which would be more interesting to me)?  If MP gave an option to tick how many tries it took to redpoint, would you be upset if people didn't use that option?  

I suppose the bottom line is just what Kedron wrote.

No I would not be upset.

Ticks are pointless so it doesn't matter.

Matt Jones wrote: Why do people tick "Redpoint" on single pitch sport climbs with fixed draws when "Pinkpoint" is an option? 

Why do you care, when not caring is an option?

David K wrote:

Why do you care, when not caring is an option?

I do not care, but I am curious.  

Matt Jones wrote:

I do not care, but I am curious.  

This thread says otherwise

Matt Jones wrote:

I do not care, but I am curious.  

I think you have answered your own question. No one cares.

The Raven wrote:

I think you have answered your own question. No one cares.

It seems that way.  Maybe "pinkpoint" should just be removed from MP as a tick option?

Modern day closely bolted sport routes wether they have draws on them or not is pretty much a Pinkpoint.  The gear has been essentially been pre placed.   The only place where it really matters anymore is crack climbing.  

Back in the day (1980s), redpoint was used when the first ascent was done clean while setting pro on lead, be it gear or bolts. Pinkpoint was used when the gear was placed by a separate party, usually one which couldn't lead the entire route/pitch, often on rappel. Example is Pretty in Pinkpoint, (12c, Medlicott Done, Yosemite) in which the bolts were drilled by Herbert's friends, either on rappel or from hooks. They hung the draws for Tommy, who climbed the route without falls, clipping bolts. The redpoint was done a year or so later by Scott Burk, who led it sight-unseen, ground-up, clipping bolts from his draws on his harness. This meant 2 clips per bolt instead of 1, which on extremely thin steep rock is much harder. A group on the ledge said that Scott took tension at the bolt just below the crux. Since I ws the belayer, I can definitively state that Burk led it with no tension, no help, no falls. Thus, he redpointed the route.
Hope this helps clarify.

John Pruett

There is a huge difference in the physical and mental effforts required between a redpoint and a pinkpoint.   The amount of time it takes to hang while placing a draw and then clipping can make or break a project.  It also affects the stance from which you can make a clip.... up must often get higher to reach the bolt rather than a hanging draw.   That is why you will often see the great climbers skip a bolt on a project... they dont have the extra strength required to make the clip.....    which is why the terminology originated to start with.    To differentiate the skill level.   If it doesnt matter to you and you like to say  "I sent it".. fine ;   everyone gets a trophy.    But many still know the difference and dont consider it a real lead at the particular grade if its a pinkpoint.    I would downgrade a climb a letter or two between a red and pink.    So.... a 11d sport.... 11d if you red.... 11b if you pink.

lou wrote: There is a huge difference in the physical and mental effforts required between a redpoint and a pinkpoint.   The amount of time it takes to hang while placing a draw and then clipping can make or break a project.  It also affects the stance from which you can make a clip.... up must often get higher to reach the bolt rather than a hanging draw.   That is why you will often see the great climbers skip a bolt on a project... they dont have the extra strength required to make the clip.....    which is why the terminology originated to start with.    To differentiate the skill level.   If it doesnt matter to you and you like to say  "I sent it".. fine ;   everyone gets a trophy.    But many still know the difference and dont consider it a real lead at the particular grade if its a pinkpoint.    I would downgrade a climb a letter or two between a red and pink.    So.... a 11d sport.... 11d if you red.... 11b if you pink.

What if you free solo it? 5.10d?

Thanks for the insight lou and John Pruett.  Your comments are more on topic and helpful than most.       

James Schroeder wrote: The distinction between redpointing versus pinkpointing in sport climbing died years ago. Is it now making a comeback? What next, you have to lower immediately to the ground each time you fall?

And pull the rope . . then re-stick clip bolts #1 & #2,brush the starting holds, chalk-up,, do not fart - save passing gas for the send . . . YMMV

Suburban Roadside wrote:

And pull the rope . . then re-stick clip bolts #1 & #2,brush the starting holds, chalk-up,, do not fart - save passing gas for the send . . . YMMV

Hangdogging is neither.

All the pros send 5.14 + with draws already placed. None of them call their send "pinkpoint". Why would the difference exist below 5.14 ?