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Yet another bowline question...

Original Post
Zubin Chandran · · Saint Louis, Missouri · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 5

I've spent about a dozen hours searching through discussions and blogs over the last couple of years, but am unable to find an authoritative answer...

I've been wary of bowlines ever since being present when one came untied at the gym, and the climber took a fall and broke both legs. That said, it sucks being at the anchors outdoors with my hands too tired to pick apart a Figure 8 that's welded together. I switched to a Yosemite finish a few years back which helps, but not nearly enough.

I fully understand (logical part of brain) that the double bowline with a stopper is a safe knot when tied properly, but I don't think I'll feel safe unless I'm on a rethreaded bowline. Rope length is not an issue at the single pitch crags I mostly climb at, so here are my questions:

1 - is there an advantage to a double bowline rethreaded, or is a single bowline rethreaded the preferred method for people who use that knot? I am talking about this knot:
http://www.peakinstruction.com/blog/knots/how-to-tie-a-rethreaded-double-bowline-on-the-bight/

2 - for either the single bowline or double bowline rethreaded, is a stopper knot necessary? I would imagine that if it started to come untied, it would devolve into a regular bowline.

Any suggestions appreciated!

Z.

Brie Abram · · Celo, NC · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 493

I have used the retraced single bowline (aka bowline on a bight / doppelter bulin) for 6-8 years everywhere except the gym where an 8 is required. I don’t see any meaningful advantage to the double. I preach the awesomeness of the rethreaded single bowline to anyone who’ll listen. Easy to tie, secure, easy to untie

It’s fairly common in Europe, and the German Alpine Club (DAV) considers it the best way to tie in

In practice I tie it using the gesteckte variante here:

https://youtu.be/t4lnFEzsnbU



aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300

I've been using the rethreaded (single) bowline for years now with no problems. I don't see any advantage of a rethreaded double bowline, and it increases the complexity of the knot. You probably don't need a stopper knot, but I tie one anyway. Unlike the figure 8 knot, bowline can come undone without a stopper knot, and even though you still have another bowline after your rope unthread itself from the first one and leaving you with an excessively long tail, I'd rather not deal with the hassle of trying to re-tie my knot mid-route.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
aikibujin wrote: I've been using the rethreaded (single) bowline for years now with no problems. I don't see any advantage of a rethreaded double bowline, and it increases the complexity of the knot. 

Nobody that I've ever heard of ties a double bowline and then rethreads it.  The rethreaded bowline is sometimes called a double bowline but isn't, German title notwithstanding.  When finished it is a bowline on a bight.  According to testing by the DAV, it is just as secure and strong as a figure 8 but unties much easier.  The price paid is two loops through the harness tie-in points and a bit more time fabricating the knot.  

Zubin Chandran · · Saint Louis, Missouri · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 5
Brian Abram wrote: I have used the retraced single bowline (aka bowline on a bight / doppelter bulin) for 6-8 years everywhere except the gym where an 8 is required. I don’t see any meaningful advantage to the double. I preach the awesomeness of the rethreaded single bowline to anyone who’ll listen. Easy to tie, secure, easy to untie

It’s fairly common in Europe, and the German Alpine Club (DAV) considers it the best way to tie in

In practice I tie it using the gesteckte variante here:

https://youtu.be/t4lnFEzsnbU

Yes! This is the video that I needed, but never found. I don't speak German, but the instruction seems clear. I will start work on this. Thanks!

Zubin Chandran · · Saint Louis, Missouri · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 5

I really appreciate the help from all of you. I'll go with the single rethreaded bowline, but add a stopper knot for my peace of mind. It's mentally challenging making the switch, after a decade climbing on a figure 8.

Will be outdoors on Tuesday, so will use this on easy routes to build my confidence.

Thanks again!

Z.

Michael M · · Rockville, MD · Joined May 2018 · Points: 160

The only bowlines that are stable and secure without a backup knot as well as suitable for lead climbing are Lee's Link and EBSB. I prefer Lee's Link (the first image below). 



 
amarius · · Nowhere, OK · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 20
Michael M wrote: The only bowlines that are stable and secure without a backup knot as well as suitable for lead climbing are Lee's Link and EBSB. I prefer Lee's Link (the first image below).

Retraced bowline is perfectly fine without the stopper knot, and has been used for leading for many years. 

Even though Lee's knot is safe it is even harder to visually inspect than either DBBL or RTBL. Not saying that it is bad, but the argument usually brought up against DBBL is the difficulty of inspection.
Matt Himmelstein · · Orange, CA · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 194

I use the bowline on a bight with a stopper knot.I leave plenty of tail and have never had the knot come anywhere near rolling.  With this knot, one of the things I see as an advantage is that if I am distracted half-way through, I still have a single bowline tied into my harness.  If it is strong enough to hold a genoa when tacking, it is darn sure strong enough to hold me on a whip.

Tradgic Yogurt · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2016 · Points: 55

Use whatever you feel comfy with, as long as:
1. It's an actual knot (e.g., Lynn Hill is blatantly honest that she didn't tie a knot at all).
2. The knot is within the universe of knots safe and suitable for climbing (not all knots are fit for this purpose)
2. You and your partners are satisfied that you can tie it right (this person is trusting you, and you are trusting them).

If you choose to use a bowline, and tie a real knot, you're gonna die... from old age after a happy life of climbing, or other adventures, from possibly lots of other things, maybe some random happenstance, but not from using a bowline.

Zubin Chandran · · Saint Louis, Missouri · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 5
Tradgic Yogurt wrote: Use whatever you feel comfy with, as long as:
1. It's an actual knot (e.g., Lynn Hill is blatantly honest that she didn't tie a knot at all).
2. The knot is within the universe of knots safe and suitable for climbing (not all knots are fit for this purpose)
2. You and your partners are satisfied that you can tie it right (this person is trusting you, and you are trusting them).

If you choose to use a bowline, and tie a real knot, you're gonna die... from old age after a happy life of climbing, or other adventures, from possibly lots of other things, maybe some random happenstance, but not from using a bowline.

Your last criteria - partner(s) being satisfied - is one of the big issues around here. There are so many gym climbers that I've had people who've climbed a year or two insist that I use a stopper knot on my figure 8, even though I have a good 5"-6" of tail. I can count on one hand the people who I've seen tie in with a bowline in the last 3-4 years. If I'm going to use a bowline, I need to be 100% confident I don't need someone to check it for me.

Matt Castelli · · Denver · Joined Feb 2017 · Points: 280

You didn't ask, but if you are familiar with a figure 8 w/ the yosemite finish, just tying the yosemite finish as a bight (instead of a single strand) makes it quite easy to untie. And gyms can't give you problems if they require figure 8s.

Car Lo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 5
I do this and currently I'm not dead
A B · · West Coast · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 62
t.farrell wrote:

What about Lee’s locked Yosemite bowline? that one has the little lock and chain next to it so it must be safe to use too       

FWIW, I've been using this knot almost exclusively when sport climbing for the past year or so. 

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
Michael M wrote: The only bowlines that are stable and secure without a backup knot as well as suitable for lead climbing are Lee's Link and EBSB. I prefer Lee's Link (the first image below).
 

Nonsense.

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
Zubin Chandran wrote:

Your last criteria - partner(s) being satisfied - is one of the big issues around here. There are so many gym climbers that I've had people who've climbed a year or two insist that I use a stopper knot on my figure 8, even though I have a good 5"-6" of tail. I can count on one hand the people who I've seen tie in with a bowline in the last 3-4 years. If I'm going to use a bowline, I need to be 100% confident I don't need someone to check it for me.

Zubin,

I've used a double, re-threaded bowline (no stopper knot) for 39 years now.  It's never come untied.   I really dislike the F8 as a tie-in (as I'm forced to use in some gyms) because at 180lbs, it's near impossible to untie after several leader falls (as you said).   I think you'll find that a much higher percentage of experienced heavier climbers (not all) use some form of bowline than the anorexics.

I won't rag on those people who "insist" you use an F8 ('cause it's all been said many times before).  Just understand that they are ignorant and scared to do anything besides what the herd does.  

If your partner can't check your knot, don't "assume" but clear your mind and do your own double-check, never skip it.   Your knot should have proper symmetry and shape.   After you've tied it a few thousand times, you'll have more confidence.  
David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

One great thing about a bowline on a bight is that if you don't complete it it has so much tail you are likely to notice, pause and finish. 

Matt Himmelstein · · Orange, CA · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 194
David Coley wrote: One great thing about a bowline on a bight is that if you don't complete it it has so much tail you are likely to notice, pause and finish. 

Also, if you don't finish it, you still have a single bowline.

Matt Himmelstein · · Orange, CA · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 194
John Byrnes wrote:

If your partner can't check your knot, don't "assume" but clear your mind and do your own double-check, never skip it.   Your knot should have proper symmetry and shape.   After you've tied it a few thousand times, you'll have more confidence.  


A bowline is also a very helpful know to tie if you want to check if your partner actually checks your gear or just looks at you.  I have had many climbing partners look at my know and tell me I am good to go, when I know that they don't know how to check a bowline and thus did not do a real check.  Sometimes I call them out on it, sometimes I don't.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Bowline user for 62 years and counting,  Have been through several variations; the last few years this one from http://www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/knots/Bowlines_Analysis.pdf  (password is "thankyou").  Called Lee's locked bowline, it is a Yosemite bowline with a finishing tuck of the free end back through the two collar turns.

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610

Blah, blah, blah. Tie whichever knot YOU are comfortable and confident with. It's YOUR ass.

I used to roll with bowline with yose finish WITH a double fish on the loop but with some stiff ropes it would still loosen up sometimes.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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