Quad anchor for trad

Advice question:

I’m learning more about the quad anchor. It seems like a good option for two bolt anchors on multi pitches. Especially, when you can keep it pre rigged. 

What are your experiences with the quad in trad climbing? Can you keep it pre rigged? Can you shorten/adjust legs with clove hitches? Is it better to tie the anchor anew at the Belay stance? Pros and cons? 
Thanks in advance.

Don’t waste your time with quad anchors.  Although you can adjust the legs with cloves to “equalize” your pieces, it is time consuming, and the question becomes: “why?”

Agreed with the above comment, great for two bolt anchors in a horizontal plane... not so much for other configurations.

Equallete? Cordelette? 

Usually I use the rope when building gear anchors. The quad is great for 2 point anchors, but anything more becomes inefficient. 

Personally, I don't use the quad - I use a cordalette. But this would work, too. And yes, you can use the rope for building the anchor when swapping leads.

Michael,

First you want to make sure what you are calling a quad is a quad; if you are thinking you need to use clove hitches to adjust individual strands of the cordelette to achieve equalization you may be confusing this with an equalette.

In the video above the instructor is showing how to make a quad with three pieces. But if you are using a quad for only two pieces you just double the cordelette and tie an overhand on each side to create the pocket. Then clip 3 of the four strands (so, if one anchor failed the quad doesn’t simply slide through your carabiner at the power point).

As another posted, try it out and you decide. I use it all the time ( pre-rigged) If I know there are two bolt anchors. I also carry one when ice climbing as it is a quick way to connect two ice screws.

It’s just another tool that some like and others don’t. It’s up to use to experiment and decide if you want to use it. Like everything, just make sure you use it properly. Safe climbing. 

I use 'mini-quads' to go off of 2-bolt anchors when I'm sport climbing or for the rare bolted trad anchor on slabby multi-pitch routes. Very rarely have I made it work on a 3-piece trad anchor - by clipping one end of the quad into 2 pieces that are equalized on a sliding-x and the other end into my 3rd piece. Almost always more trouble than just using cord to build a 'normal' anchor. So I experimented a few times, but ultimately I don't mess around with the quad when trad climbing, as other have echoed. Good question though. I'll be interested to see if others chime in. Frank's video is neat, I'll have to give that a try.

John, I am thinking of the quad anchor, not the equalette. Sorry about the confusion. One of my questions was if a clove hitch could be used on a quad to even up a leg or add on another anchor point? I don’t see why not. But I’m learning. 
Thank so much for your input.

null

John Vanek wrote: Michael,

First you want to make sure what you are calling a quad is a quad; if you are thinking you need to use clove hitches to adjust individual strands of the cordelette to achieve equalization you may be confusing this with an equalette.

In the video above the instructor is showing how to make a quad with three pieces. But if you are using a quad for only two pieces you just double the cordelette and tie an overhand on each side to create the pocket. Then clip 3 of the four strands (so, if one anchor failed the quad doesn’t simply slide through your carabiner at the power point).

As another posted, try it out and you decide. I use it all the time ( pre-rigged) If I know there are two bolt anchors. I also carry one when ice climbing as it is a quick way to connect two ice screws.

It’s just another tool that some like and others don’t. It’s up to use to experiment and decide if you want to use it. Like everything, just make sure you use it properly. Safe climbing. 

Yeah, I guess you could do it with 2 closely spaced pieces, but how comfortable would you feel with that anchor?  Especially since if one of those pieces were to go, the second would be subjected to pretty significant extension and shock loading?  Again, you COULD do this, but what advantage does it offer over literally any other setup?

Michael Tilden wrote: Advice question:

I’m learning more about the quad anchor. It seems like a good option for two bolt anchors on multi pitches. Especially, when you can keep it pre rigged. 

What are your experiences with the quad in trad climbing? Can you keep it pre rigged? Can you shorten/adjust legs with clove hitches? Is it better to tie the anchor anew at the Belay stance? Pros and cons? 
Thanks in advance.

climbing friend,

at risk of having the others think you a "nerd," just tie off dubiously-equalized cordlette like a man, or utilize only rope and talk about this at great length on internet if you wish to act superior to others (but realize escape of belay with anchor of rope alone  will "rustle your jimmys")

Hypothetical quad anchor set ups.  Somewhat complicated and could be bulky to rack depending on arm lengths, but seems reasonably equalized and redundant. Some extension. Issues???

Ted Pinson wrote:

Yeah, I guess you could do it with 2 closely spaced pieces, but how comfortable would you feel with that anchor?  Especially since if one of those pieces were to go, the second would be subjected to pretty significant extension and shock loading?  Again, you COULD do this, but what advantage does it offer over literally any other setup?

First, no you're not going to shockload your anchor with the quad,unless you're a dumbass and tied in with something static. Second, extension can easily be minimized when using the quad.

Third, if my two pieces are bomber enough and close enough, connecting them a quad is fine. I'd feel pretty damn comfortable with that. Imagine a #13 stopper and a #3 in two separate cracks. If that isn't enough for an anchor then you need to trust your gear more. 

Michael Tilden wrote: John, I am thinking of the quad anchor, not the equalette. Sorry about the confusion. One of my questions was if a clove hitch could be used on a quad to even up a leg or add on another anchor point? I don’t see why not. But I’m learning.
Thank so much for your input.

null

Even easier than using a clove to shorten a leg is to simply wrap the cord another time around the carabiner and clip it again.

Also, while tying a quad starting with an open cordalette is possible, I often find it easier and quicker to tie it starting with the cord in a loop. Clip the first two pieces as if you were making a two-piece anchor with an overhand on a bight, then tie another overhand on a bight on the far side of loop formed. Clip that second bight to the third piece of gear. It does use a bit more material, so not the best solution when a long anchor is necessary or you're otherwise limited by material length.

I think in all the internet shouting about how stupid a quad is for trad climbing, we're forgetting what the original purpose of the quad was. The quad was never supposed to be the holy grail of anchors. Rather it was developed as a solution to the problem of having two different directions of pull on the anchor in a multi-pitch scenario or having limited space at a single master point resulting in pinching carabiners. The last line in the quad paper literally says: "But there is no perfect anchor system. Every situation has factors that one must consider, and the more options you have in your toolbox, the better you’ll be able to tailor to each situation for the best outcome."

The quad is fine, and yes you can keep it pre-rigged. A cordalette is also nice if you ever have to self rescue.

Haters gonna hate. 

eli poss wrote:

First, no you're not going to shockload your anchor with the quad,unless you're a dumbass and tied in with something static. Second, extension can easily be minimized when using the quad.

Third, if my two pieces are bomber enough and close enough, connecting them a quad is fine. I'd feel pretty damn comfortable with that. Imagine a #13 stopper and a #3 in two separate cracks. If that isn't enough for an anchor then you need to trust your gear more. 

Eli - it’s not about what you’re tied in with in this instance, it’s what you’re using to make the quad, which is mostly static tech cord.  Even nylon is still pretty static compared to climbing rope, and even short extensions can be pretty disastrous.  The very thing you do to minimize extension on a quad/sliding X also negates any “equalizing” advantages such a setup would give you.

Have you ever built a gear anchor?  If so, you’d realize that you’re not always going to get a #13 and a #3 right next to each other in perfect rock.  Trad anchors are about finding the right rigging for the situation you’re given based on the gear available, not going up with a particular rigging system in mind and praying you’ll find the perfect setup for it.

I’ve pretty much only used a quad for gear anchors. They are quick, if you use a dyneema sling they are light and low bulk. Usually I’ll have a few extra alpine draws/quick draws if I need to extend one side of the quad and if all else fails I’ll use the rope. Cordalette is bulky, time consuming and unnecessary in most situations. Plus they take a while for the second to break down and rack so not as nice for them either. 

Ted Pinson wrote:

Eli - it’s not about what you’re tied in with in this instance, it’s what you’re using to make the quad, which is mostly static tech cord.  Even nylon is still pretty static compared to climbing rope, and even short extensions can be pretty disastrous.  The very thing you do to minimize extension on a quad/sliding X also negates any “equalizing” advantages such a setup would give you.

Have you ever built a gear anchor?  If so, you’d realize that you’re not always going to get a #13 and a #3 right next to each other in perfect rock.  Trad anchors are about finding the right rigging for the situation you’re given based on the gear available, not going up with a particular rigging system in mind and praying you’ll find the perfect setup for it.

It doesn't really matter what material your anchor is built out of as long as you have a dynamic rope anywhere else in the system between you and your anchor. Unless the connection between you and your anchor is static then shock-loading will never happen. 

Yes I've built plenty of gear anchors, and most of the time I'm not working with 2 utterly bomber pieces right next to each other. I was just trying to make a point that if you have 2 super bomber pieces close together then a quad is a perfectly fine option and it's safe to use a 2 piece anchor if you're gear is bomber. 

Ok...but that’s a non sequitur of an argument.  Are you recommending people haul a pretied quad up with them in the off chance that they happen to find two bomber pieces next to each other?

I don’t see what your personal connection to the anchor has to do with cascading failure.  Are you sure that you understand how shock loading works?

Ted Pinson wrote: Ok...but that’s a non sequitur of an argument.  Are you recommending people haul a pretied quad up with them in the off chance that they happen to find two bomber pieces next to each other?

I don’t see what your personal connection to the anchor has to do with cascading failure.  Are you sure that you understand how shock loading works?

No I'm not recommending people haul up a pre tied quad with them, just recommending they keep an open mind to using the quad with the cordalette they likely already have with them should an opportunity present itself. It takes all of about 30 sec to turn a cordalette into a quad so of course it doesn't need to be pre tied. 

Yes, I understand how shock loading works. Think about it, something had to load your anchor in order to get 1 piece to fail and extend. What I'm saying is that if there is a dynamic rope in between your load, whatever it may be, and the anchor then shock loading by definition doesn't occur. Assuming the climbers have half a brain between them, the vast majority of situations one might encounter while climbing will involve a dynamic rope somewhere between the load and the anchor.

Eli, there’s a rope between YOU and the anchor.  So yes, a person falling will not shock load the anchor.  But if a big enough fall were to cause one of your pieces to pull/fail (say, a ~FF2), the only thing between your first piece and the second is a semi-static cord, which WILL shock load it, even with small amounts of extension.
https://americanalpineclub.org/resources-blog/2017/7/31/anchors

I’m not saying there’s never a place for quads, I just don’t think they should be your “go-to” for gear anchors.  They are currently overhyped and new climbers become convinced that they are somehow adding a margin of safety by using them when, in fact, most data show that they are, if anything, less safe than pre-equalized cord or rope anchors, because extension is a bigger deal than we thought and “equalization” isn’t.