Devils Tower in June – 22 years after the voluntary June closure started – What do people think now?

Suburban Roadside wrote:

Source, 

sends of a more serious nature,
Actually impressive, all onsight - flashed everything!
(or damn near, hands stayed on the same holds , during  the 1 false start, @1:19)
This cat "czd" Came, saw & crushed  -  what he wanted to.
 v7-8  the sit start seems fresh using a carved hold, the location and age suggests it was chiseled by PT Barnum, or that ilk
Some insist it is prehistoric; there is extensive mounding
& wall structure along the base. so a shelter rock or burial location ?

Well , flame me for adding this to this Bear Lodge Thread, ( & I expect to be lit up by a certain troll too)

1st
I am totally sympathetic, and feel that the genocide that the white man committed against the original population is a great under apologized for,, un resolved, atrocity.. ..
As much as it would be nice if we could, the reversal of those crimes makes no difference,
nothing we do now, good or bad, respectful or not, voluntarily or by restrictive fiat, (it) will not change history.
 Our collective agreeing to not climb will not be an emollient to  the victims..,
 The march of civilization is marred with constant lurches, seemingly mostly backwards.,  as we  may be are experiencing,.

Please Im atree hugin' Brik wearin' granolahead from diapers.  . .
So I kept this rock a secret, or so I thought.. It was the last place I wanted to go.
And the use of chalk, choked me up.
The Skullz Rock is a short walk from a public beach,
 These  tilted  stones offer amazing bouldering/climbing at  every grade,  into the highest v grades.
I consider it sacred ground. It feels that way. The soltice matching near perfect alignment , the old growth where every thing was clear cut.
That significant mounding  around & the remains of an ancient stacked stone wall forming a crypt like recess..surrounding  the base,
the skulls' mouth is clearly the result of chiseling but, by what sort of tool, is up for debate...


Im not going to go into the cruelty that is the Astrian/Hungarian trait  of shrinking & expanding at an alarming rate...
The way I look at it,  
it is all good but Im glad I had a heads up, to get mine when the getting was good, and access easy.
that and that an extended youth, had to come with some price.

 So I have these climbing zones all to myself and have for a decade at least.. I can no longer pull down as the best of the lines demand, so Iwas showing "czd" other rocks and the Martins pond boulder, once painted, with the words "Sex Drugs&Rock", there is no argument about that, the year it was painted, and then an orange re-paint , are not settled , which is to my loss.

So
 when, & After  
Having pointed out that - who ever was responsible-
it was messed up & ,that  they had caused an infestation of chiggers.
by placing rotting limbs & wood down between ,
the once perfectly kept , and once easily  maintainable
 sweepable
hard pack,
 &
 a couple of back breakers,,.

 I had hoped to go to another less sacred area,
but to my surprise "czd" had a grainy black & white video of Skullz Rock., "You don`t know where this is, do you?" he asked with a air of arrogance, bordering on superiority.
 so while the chalk and the stupid addition of a rotting (not) "platform for pads"? was criminal to my sensibilities.  I admitted to knowing where it was  and led the way,
  "czd" , crushed it, Flashing every thing.
 Oh the desecration!

 sincerely,  ~  would you look to restrict climbing at every shelter rock?

Was there something you were trying to say in this long, incomprehensible ramble?

gnewIt, it is really u, nawawmeen
That you, feign not understanding makes me laugh, but just in case,  the lack of your ability, to follow what the point was, seems to me, to be your problem, possibly due to the result of your lack of focus, short attention span, and poor reading comprehension.

 Read The Questions, in this case, the post, backwards. This trick might help you in your ability to comprehend what if anything is being asked. In case you did not understand "backwards";  if you look for a question mark;(?) at the end of  the last  sentence of a post it should become easy for even a wysazz to understand

Greg D wrote: So, Eli, care to elaborate on "more advanced technologically"?  History expert I presume?  

In military terms, yes they were more advanced. US soldiers had much better access to guns and ammunition, as well as the latest generation of weaponry, as opposed the older, outdated guns they sold to native Americans. I am by no means a history expert, but my father teaches history and I've learned a little over the years.

And no I don't have any primary sources to verify that native Americans were physically stronger as it is just a strong hunch.

But this is all beside the point. The point is that, even if you have the military might to conquer a group with less military might, it doesn't mean you should or that you deserve to conquer them. Nazi Germany had the military might to potentially conquer all of Europe had they not made a few critical mistakes but does that mean Hitler deserved to rule over all of Europe? And 

WYSAZZ

Loyd Wofford III wrote: ^^^^^^^^and this guy wins!!!!!!??????????

Wisazz..........!!!!?????

I think I will strive to be that

Fixed It ! Thnx

eli poss wrote: But this is all beside the point. The point is that, even if you have the military might to conquer a group with less military might, it doesn't mean you should or that you deserve to conquer them. Nazi Germany had the military might to potentially conquer all of Europe had they not made a few critical mistakes but does that mean Hitler deserved to rule over all of Europe? And 

You see this is where you are getting yourself into a paradox.  How come you aren't condemning Native on Native violence?

The natives fought and killed each other long before the settlers.  I had already pointed out that the Sioux pushed out other tribes and actually waged "total war" on several tribes such as the Pawnee and the Cheyenne.  Remember Eli, the Black Hills and Devils Tower aren't originally the Lakota Sioux's, it belonged the Cheyenne and Sioux held it in less time than the US has.  When the French explorers under Samuel de Champlain first came into the Great Lakes regions, the Huron were busy dealing with an equally strong Iroquois.  When the Conquistadors under Cortez first landed, they were able to ally with the local tribes that were eager to deal with the ever so violent Aztec Empire.  What is interesting about these last two examples are, as soon as the Europeans show up, the natives want to escalate the conflict because they recognize they have an advantage.

From Steven Pinkler: "Contra leftist anthropologists who celebrate the noble savage, quantitative body counts—such as the proportion of prehistoric skeletons with ax marks and embedded arrowheads or the proportion of men in a contemporary foraging tribe who die at the hands of other men—suggest that pre-state societies were far more violent than our own."

Quit deluding yourself that the European settlers were the only evil doers on this continent.

Mason Stone wrote: Practiced in all of the Americas prior to Columbus: technology, especially genetic engineering, corn; architecture, pueblos, pyramids, aqueducts, mound building, canal systems, dams, mining; medicine, analgesics, surgery, including brain surgery, amputation, astronomy, including a more advanced calendar than old world; political system, democracy, federation, matrilineal succession, warfare, take the most territory by killing the least amount of people, why? Because killing aint profitable.

Evidence of corn cultivation, which means it was engineered dates 11000 years ago, predates the above cited technology originating in Mesopotamia. I think what you want is Sumer, which it still predates.

Helen and others only touched on the subject. You would do well to do some research, you are coming off as an idiot, from idiotes, look it up.

What I refer to my people existed here, America, for over 20000 years, Anishinabeg, among my cousins. But, I am also European, mostly German,  French and Spanish.

So look we are all related and as I mentioned before, in the coming centuries we will be related more. Get used to it, which means get used to being part of the clan. And back on topic, we can find ways to enjoy the tower while respecting other's viewpoints.

I think all of those things can generally be said of all ancient cultures.  The first evidence of crop cultivation is wheat in the middle east about 8000 bc. Cultivated meaning sowed, tended and reaped. Not just strewn along frequent travel paths.

I don't know why you take this as some sort of slam against native culture, it is just that is what the historical record shows.

But the fact still remains that the tidal wave of European immigration could not be withstood by a largely agrarian or nomadic society that lacked metal armor and distance weapons(guns and canons) and horses, and the biggest killer of all....smallpox. 

And I think natives seriously underestimated the sheer determination of the US gov't to remove all natives from the land by whatever means necessary. Because whites hadn't figured out a way to make money off of them.  

Mason Stone wrote: Hey Buck Rio,

And so, I say lets not behave like our predecessors, lets instead work with each other to come to a mutual understanding, we can live better than we have in the past, all of us. This includes educating ourselves, informing each other about what is "true" when it comes to the historical record.That is unless you are in favor of war and its end game, enslavement and genocide.  

Have you seen the state of affairs in this country, or looked at our history?  That's a very nice concept and I'm on board with that but to think that people will actually act with courtesy and respect is something I have very little faith in.  Recent events have only made me even more jaded.

Mason Stone wrote: Practiced in all of the Americas prior to Columbus: technology, especially genetic engineering, corn; architecture, pueblos, pyramids, aqueducts, mound building, canal systems, dams, mining; medicine, analgesics, surgery, including brain surgery, amputation, astronomy, including a more advanced calendar than old world; political system, democracy, federation, matrilineal succession, warfare, take the most territory by killing the least amount of people, why? Because killing aint profitable.

Citation needed on the violence.  I've already posted about this earlier, the burden is on you to back your claim up. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Concerning the rest, no it was not practiced "in all of the Americas."  The Mesoamericans were the most advanced out of all the indigenious people but they didn't do the whole of what you listed.  Don't confuse the achievements of one culture with another and make a blanket statement that they all did it.  The Sioux sure didn't build pyramids.

Evidence of corn cultivation, which means it was engineered dates 11000 years ago, predates the above cited technology originating in Mesopotamia. I think what you want is Sumer, which it still predates.

Wrong, reliable sources have placed corn's origin in Mexico 9000 years ago (7000 BCE).  This timeframe coincides with farming around Mesopotamia and Asia.  Mesopotamia may have started agriculture pursuits even earlier.  I didn't bring up the agriculture however not all natives practiced it.  I am a little familiar with Mesoamerican agriculture which was quite well thought out and supported the Aztec Empire's conquests.  Interestingly enough, China may have been a late comer to agriculture but wound up being the most advanced culture in the world at one point.

Helen and others only touched on the subject. You would do well to do some research, you are coming off as an idiot, from idiotes, look it up.

Ad hominem and a logical fallacy on who has the burden to prove their point.

What I refer to my people existed here, America, for over 20000 years, Anishinabeg, among my cousins. But, I am also European, mostly German,  French and Spanish.

Once again, you over exaggerate your claims.  The Native American gene divergence began 17500 years ago (15500 BCE).  Meaning the natives split away from the Bering land bridge and moved southward.  However the earliest confirmed culture is the Clovis culture in the south.  Its hard to say where people went until then.

So look we are all related and as I mentioned before, in the coming centuries we will be related more. Get used to it, which means get used to being part of the clan. And back on topic, we can find ways to enjoy the tower while respecting other's viewpoints.

This thread should be dead.  The Supertopo version of it died long ago when Lucas was shown the door by climbers that are actually familiar with the history of the "voluntary" ban.  The only reason why it is alive is people want to virtue signal on Mountain Project.  This thread goes in circles, it has been shown that climbing can never be legally banned due to religious beliefs, however people somehow can't grasp that.  We aren't talking about Shiprock that is on tribal land, we are talking a national monument.  A special group can't bar certain activities for their religious sensibilities. 

Sheesh, people...

China generally gets credit for gun powder, much of our sciences should give credit to the Arabic world (let's not even bring up religion), people's everywhere developed extraordinary ways to stay alive. Ever throw a dart with an atlatl? The people who preceded the modern day tribes are believed to have hunted giant ground sloths to extinction. In Idaho. A species that overlapped mastodons. Early people's weren't ignernt unsophisticated savages. They were us. Exactly the same. Just different circumstances.

As for our collective benevolence to other peoples? Yeah. You betcha. Once the tribes were taken care of, it was time to chase out the Chinese, who had outlived their usefulness. That history too far back for you? Their are still Americans of Japanese ancestry who were put into camps in several western states.

Surely we are much kinder people now, amirite? Maybe ask a refugee. Personally? I am an incurable optimist because otherwise it's far too depressing. But I am not delusional about thinking we'll all play nice cuz Mr. Rogers says we should.

Best, OLH

jg fox wrote: Citation needed on the violence.  I've already posted about this earlier, the burden is on you to back your claim up. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Concerning the rest, no it was not practiced "in all of the Americas."  The Mesoamericans were the most advanced out of all the indigenious people but they didn't do the whole of what you listed.  Don't confuse the achievements of one culture with another and make a blanket statement that they all did it.  The Sioux sure didn't build pyramids.

Wrong, reliable sources have placed corn's origin in Mexico 9000 years ago (7000 BCE).  This timeframe coincides with farming around Mesopotamia and Asia.  Mesopotamia may have started agriculture pursuits even earlier.  I didn't bring up the agriculture however not all natives practiced it.  I am a little familiar with Mesoamerican agriculture which was quite well thought out and supported the Aztec Empire's conquests.  Interestingly enough, China may have been a late comer to agriculture but wound up being the most advanced culture in the world at one point.

Ad hominem and a logical fallacy on who has the burden to prove their point.

Once again, you over exaggerate your claims.  The Native American gene divergence began 17500 years ago (15500 BCE).  Meaning the natives split away from the Bering land bridge and moved southward.  However the earliest confirmed culture is the Clovis culture in the south.  Its hard to say where people went until then.

This thread should be dead.  The Supertopo version of it died long ago when Lucas was shown the door by climbers that are actually familiar with the history of the "voluntary" ban.  The only reason why it is alive is people want to virtue signal on Mountain Project.  This thread goes in circles, it has been shown that climbing can never be legally banned due to religious beliefs, however people somehow can't grasp that.  We aren't talking about Shiprock that is on tribal land, we are talking a national monument.  A special group can't bar certain activities for their religious sensibilities. 

Maybe not, but the NPS certainly can.

Ted Pinson wrote:

Maybe not, but the NPS certainly can.

I don’t think so. 

I believe the Cave Rock closure was allowed because it was justified on the basis of its status on the National Register of Historic Places.
Not formally for religious reasons.
Climbers need to make sure that Devils Tower doesn't make it to the same National Register of Historic Places.

jg fox wrote: Wrong, reliable sources have placed corn's origin in Mexico 9000 years ago (7000 BCE).  This timeframe coincides with farming around Mesopotamia and Asia.  Mesopotamia may have started agriculture pursuits even earlier.  I didn't bring up the agriculture however not all natives practiced it.  I am a little familiar with Mesoamerican agriculture which was quite well thought out and supported the Aztec Empire's conquests.  Interestingly enough, China may have been a late comer to agriculture but wound up being the most advanced culture in the world at one point.

Corn was domesticated around 9000 years ago, but its predecessor and many other crops were cultivated in the Americas long before that. Rye wasn't domesticated until long after corn so, in that regard, the Native Americans had domesticated crops long before Europeans ever managed to.

However, you also have to understand that these estimates are valid within +/- 1000 years so if you go on that range of 2000 years, most of the major ancient civilizations (Americas, Eastern Asia, India, Mesopotamia, Africa) could have domesticated crops at the exact same time for all we know.

Point is, Native Americans were not the savages that they are often portrayed to be in our history textbooks. 

No one gives a s%^& about who 'invented' corn. The fact is that the Native Americans lost the wars because of the same reason that all wars are lost - the inability to produce sufficient manpower, weapons, resources, or strategy to defeat their enemies. That is not racist, that is a fact. No one is calling Native Americans stupid. No one is calling Native Americans savages - no respectable textbook would and I challenge you to find one that does. Its common knowledge that Native Americans many different complex societies. No one is calling Native Americans anything.

The biggest threat to the climbing access at Devil's Tower is ironically other climbers. It is not Native Americans, it is not the government. It is other climbers that are virtue signalling that are going to get the climbing access taken away.

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote: No one gives a s%^& about who 'invented' corn. The fact is that the Native Americans lost the wars because of the same reason that all wars are lost - the inability to produce sufficient manpower, weapons, resources, or strategy to defeat their enemies. That is not racist, that is a fact. No one is calling Native Americans stupid. No one is calling Native Americans savages - no respectable textbook would and I challenge you to find one that does. Its common knowledge that Native Americans many different complex societies. No one is calling Native Americans anything.

The biggest threat to the climbing access at Devil's Tower is ironically other climbers. It is not Native Americans, it is not the government. It is other climbers that are virtue signalling that are going to get the climbing access taken away.

+1 Greg  

I for one do not disrespect native cultures or people, and I don't think anybody that posted a desire to climb DTR in June did either. But you can tell by some peoples tones ANY kind of disagreement is racist in their eyes.  Look at all the hubbub over Line 3 in MN, or the Dakota Access pipeline.  Are the people whos livelihood depends on that pipeline all racist? Or do they just want a job, and they happen to be welders. 

Greg D wrote:Yet, the bird closures have been quite successful and are seldomly violated. Is that because climbers are concerned about the bird populations or that they might receive a fine? I'm inclined to think the latter. 

 Is it really that hard to find other routes in other areas for only four weeks of the year  considering there are  like 1 million on this planet  The Native Americans have had so much taken away from them over the last two centuries. Is it really that hard to allow them to have a sacred area for a few weeks out of the year?   How selfish can climbers be? 

Nailed it. As a climbing ranger with a Peregrine Closure, that is on sacred land, I agree.  These closures only are effective based on the threat that the individual will be cited for the infraction. I would say that  9 out of 10 climbers there, believe that Turkey Vultures must be Peregrines, due to the multitudes of them hovering above the area.  I would say that 999 out of 1000 have no idea that the crags and hills we are thriving in once were Home to hundreds of thousands of people for tens of thousands of years.  

Ryan Swanson wrote:

Cartridge brass is 70% copper, 30% zinc. So yes, “shell casings” are made from copper. 

I will give that it includes copper but it also requires zinc and the ability to create an alloy.  Were the native americans that sophisticated?  that is an honest question.  I really don't know.