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When do you double up protection?

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

Does this damned argument have to start up in every thread?

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
Ted Pinson wrote: Does this damned argument have to start up in every thread?

"The floggings shall continue until morale is improved."

Brady3 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 15

Thanks to those that gave meaningful responses, at least a few got in before this turned into a debate on what is trad climbing.

I'll just point out that definitions do change, that's why there's a new dictionary printed every few years.  When the waltz was first introduced it was looked down on by the older generation because it was too scandalous, now it is used to poke fun at those that are prim and proper (and thus usually prudish).  So maybe resting on gear was not allowed in trad climbing before, but things change and a handful of people do not get to set the definitions, they are determined by popular usage.
Also, for any given piece of gear it will nearly always be true that it is more likely to fail in the event of a fall than from taking a rest, so if those are your options then resting is usually going to be safer than taking the fall (that of course does not mean that either is always safe or always dangerous, and a piece is of course even less likely to fail if it is never weighted).  There are a lot of factors to consider in trad climbing, it is difficult to make ultimatums that will accurately govern all of it.

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,375

At the risk of sidetracking the thread back to the OP, Brady3, to state the obvious, put some effort into getting some partners who are stronger climbers than you. Everyone needs the opportunity to climb with better climbers, it's the only way some of us will really progress. You are "paying your dues" admirably with  your current partners. Upping your game doing more following will benefit them also.

As to placing more pro? I have zero experience placing pro. However, not enough pro in basalt (new to the lead climber, another reason to place more gear) netted a fall a year ago that should have injured or killed one or both of us. The time factor is always there, but if it isn't? This noob sure cant see any reason not to place more, rather than less.

And, those of you who mentioned "gripped for no discernable reason"? Yeah, lol, maybe it's your head game messing with you. Or. Perhaps it isn't. It just might be something not obvious, but the fear is correct, even if you can't place the "why". A good reason to place gear, all else being equal. Or bail. Or don't go that day at all. Or don't let that new dude belay you.

Around here, tstorms often boil up from the south. They may not be visible until it's too late. More than once, I've hustled fast to get inside under a bluebird sky. Why? The wind suddenly coming up, and the smell of wet sagebrush. It took a few times of something being "off", ignoring that, and getting drenched, with lightning all around, before I got that one figured out.

Best, OLH

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,375
FrankPS wrote:

"The floggings shall continue until morale is improved."

"Morale"?? Lol, Frank! If a good flogging improves your spirits, well, who am I to nay say?

Best, H.
Jef Anstey · · St. John's, NL · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 140

Seemingly what most of us might call a "send" healje seems to use as the definition of Trad climbing

sure if you rest on a piece you might not have "sent" the route...but it's still a Trad route and you were clinging it on lead...so how is it not a Trad climb?

Not to mention that the goal in sport is ALSO not to rest and do things clean hence "free climbing" right?

Mark Wenzel · · Charlotte, NC · Joined May 2015 · Points: 45

Hangdogging is cheating, sport or trad.
I think the trad guys know better than to hang off half the gear they place... face it, some pro is for moral support, and little else. It's when the sport folks don't know the difference, then things get out of hand.

John Barritt · · The 405 · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 1,083

The discussion of "ethics" or "bad form" matters not. Hanging on gear on your rope while freeclimbing is foolish. 

Doing it on the regular and/or repeatedly on one route is going to end badly sooner or later.

Aid is aid, and free is free, and the two should never be confused. 

Direct aid isn't an argument to justify hanging on your gear. If you can't get up a trad line on gear without hanging you'd be safer on something else.

Forget style, 

Alexander Blum · · Livermore, CA · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 143
Brady3 wrote: I've been climbing trad for a few years now, but I've always been nervous to push my leading.  I rarely try leading a climb that I have not top-roped before because I don't want to get to an unexpected runout, and I have backed off several do to fear of falling.  I trust my gear, I've hung on it plenty and think I'm pretty good at determining when a piece isn't great to know when to back it up. 
OP, you open with this information, but then follow up with:

 I got up to the roof just below the crux and stuck in a cam low in the crack and rested on it, while hanging there I decided to go ahead and stick in another cam on the underside of the overhang since my next piece down was a nut in the thinner crack.  I did think about how bomber the cam was that I was hanging from and how the extra cam was probably not necessary, but I knew I didn't need that size cam higher up on the route so I might as well go ahead and stick it in, but I still almost didn't.  I then went for the crux move and took a short expected fall (my first on trad), then rested some more and went for it again and almost grabbed the jug at the top of the crack before my jam slipped.  Next thing I knew I was hanging horizontal on the face by the thin crack with my leg hooked over the rope and my top cam hanging near my tie in.
Either you a) are not as good at evaluating gear as you think you are, b) don't sling your gear appropriately, or c) are't meticulous enough in re-checking a piece when you climb off of it after resting.

But I keep thinking back to how I almost didn't place that second cam under the roof because I really did not expect that top cam to pull (I'm guessing something with how my leg hooked the rope?).  If I hadn't placed that extra cam I would have added another 8-10 feet to my fall (which with pulling the cam was only 6ish) which would have lead to me hitting a jagged bulge below the thinner crack and very well could have ended my climbing for good.

So.  When looking at a piece that you feel is bomber, when and why do you decide to double up?  Any time you might fall?  Only if the fall would be extra bad if it did pull?  Any time there's a good opportunity?  Or do you just not double up if the first piece is bomber?
(To be clear, I probably feel more confident now about leading trad than before I took those couple of falls.  This isn't a matter of whether or not I should keep leading trad, but when I should be extra careful with pieces that look bomber.)

The end of your post makes me feel like you took the wrong conclusions from your experience! When gear you thought was great pulls, that should not engender more confidence!!! There should always be two bomber pieces of gear between you and serious bodily harm. Sometimes, those 'pieces of gear' have to be your personal ability to climb up (or  down) a section of rock without falling, which is Healyje's point.

I disagree with them all the time, but John Barritt and Healyje are absolutely right about nonchanlantly hanging on gear getting you into trouble eventually. The first post in this thread proves that. All of the talk about trad vs sprad vs sport is irrelevant and detracts from the conversation.

There's nothing wrong with hanging on gear when absolutely necessary - it just shouldn't be necessary very often, and if it is you likely make a poor decision, or are in full out sprad mode on a very hard climb. The decision making process should look something like this:

- don't do a move you can't reverse if you are not sure there is protection up there
- if you climb into a 'protection desert' and don't see an option forthcoming, downclimb to a rest. if it becomes necessary to rest on a manky piece of gear while runout above a ledge, as described previously in this thread, you have made a really poor decision.
- if the route is difficult, the fall is safe, and there are two pieces of GREAT gear between you and serious bodily harm, then go for it! just do so very consciously. I would posit that most high level trad climbers follow this rule whenever possible, and know that doing hard moves with one piece of gear between them and getting hurt is a calculated roll of the dice.

Falling on gear has to happen to push limits, I get that. Resting does too. It should just be done as a last resort, not as a first resort. All of the "resting apologists" in these threads imply there are no safety concerns with the practice when there absolutely are. If you run it out 20 feet and get mega pumped, slam in one cam, then hang on it . . . that's a great recipe for some unplanned broken bones. The question shouldn't be "when do I double up gear", it should be "how do I protect the entire pitch safely, placing enough gear as appropriate in each individual situation I encounter". I might trust my life to one keyholed nut, but if my last piece of gear is a purple TCU I am probably not "going for it"above that without something else, no matter how good it looks.
Kyle Edmondson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 250
Ancent wrote: Healyje, your definition of trad climbing is wrong. Absolutely wrong. I don't care how old you are or how much you've done. Resting on gear does not suddenly make a climb "not a trad climb." That makes no sense--absolutely none--and you've been making this silly argument before.  Again, if I climb a trad climb cleanly, and you rest, you still climbed a traditional climb. You did not reorient the style of climbing just because you took. We cannot climb the same climb, with the same gear and protection, and I climb it traditionally and you sport just because you hung. It's a simple logic game and you're incorrect. Maybe you didn't send it cleanly, didn't red point, or whatever, but you still were traditional climbing. If I do a trad climb as a single pitch, and you do it in two, with an intermediate belay, you're 2 pitch climb does not instantly become "not-a-trad-climb" because you rested on your anchor.

I just copied and pasted this definition from some website, with every other source I know giving a similar one:

"Trad Climbing:
Traditional climbing, or Trad climbing, is a type of rock climbing in which a climber or group of climbers places all gear required to protect against falls (pitons, etc.), and removes it when a passage is complete.
Before the advent of sport climbing in the United States in the 1980s, and perhaps somewhat earlier in parts of Europe, the usual style of unaided rock climbing was what is now referred to as “traditional”. In trad climbing, a leader ascends a section of rock placing his or her own protective devices while climbing"

Taking does not change a climb.

Also you're ridiculous mindset means that no one should trust gear anchors. I know you don't trust them anyway--one should always "stance"--but gear works if placed correctly. So, with that knowledge, a well placed cam makes a perfect "take" option. I'll agree that the climbing mindset can change between these disciplines, but as a final quiz for your definition: If I'm "trad' climbing, know I want to take/hang but see you nearby ready to claim I'm sport climbing, so I place a bomber piece and instead of hanging on it, make a phony move to fall onto my gear as an intentional-but-hidden take, would you still deem me worth of a "traditional" climber. I didn't take! I fell just like you wanted.

You have it all wrong.  See, a couple weeks back, I did a long climb in Red Rocks.  I think it was 10 pitches.  I trad climbed 8 of them, but I have to go back and trad climb the others, because after I fell, I didn't go back to the anchor, pull the rope, and try again.  Unfortunately, I am not nearly as tough mentally as the true trad climbers of the PNW.  I feel deep and enduring shame about this.  If I was that bad ass of a climber, I would constantly lurk around these threads and demean those lesser than myself (like you) as NOT TRAD.  It would make me feel very good about myself.  I would certainly not take the hint, and shut the fuck up.

Alex James · · Redmond, WA · Joined May 2016 · Points: 191
Alexander Blum wrote: OP, you open with this information, but then follow up with:

Either you a) are not as good at evaluating gear as you think you are, b) don't sling your gear appropriately, or c) are't meticulous enough in re-checking a piece when you climb off of it after resting.

The end of your post makes me feel like you took the wrong conclusions from your experience! When gear you thought was great pulls, that should not engender more confidence!!! There should always be two bomber pieces of gear between you and serious bodily harm. Sometimes, those 'pieces of gear' have to be your personal ability to climb up (or  down) a section of rock without falling, which is Healyje's point.

I disagree with them all the time, but John Barritt and Healyje are absolutely right about nonchanlantly hanging on gear getting you into trouble eventually. The first post in this thread proves that. All of the talk about trad vs sprad vs sport is irrelevant and detracts from the conversation.

There's nothing wrong with hanging on gear when absolutely necessary - it just shouldn't be necessary very often, and if it is you likely make a poor decision, or are in full out sprad mode on a very hard climb. The decision making process should look something like this:

- don't do a move you can't reverse if you are not sure there is protection up there
- if you climb into a 'protection desert' and don't see an option forthcoming, downclimb to a rest. if it becomes necessary to rest on a manky piece of gear while runout above a ledge, as described previously in this thread, you have made a really poor decision.
- if the route is difficult, the fall is safe, and there are two pieces of GREAT gear between you and serious bodily harm, then go for it! just do so very consciously. I would posit that most high level trad climbers follow this rule whenever possible, and know that doing hard moves with one piece of gear between them and getting hurt is a calculated roll of the dice.

Falling on gear has to happen to push limits, I get that. Resting does too. It should just be done as a last resort, not as a first resort. All of the "resting apologists" in these threads imply there are no safety concerns with the practice when there absolutely are. If you run it out 20 feet and get mega pumped, slam in one cam, then hang on it . . . that's a great recipe for some unplanned broken bones. The question shouldn't be "when do I double up gear", it should be "how do I protect the entire pitch safely, placing enough gear as appropriate in each individual situation I encounter". I might trust my life to one keyholed nut, but if my last piece of gear is a purple TCU I am probably not "going for it"above that without something else, no matter how good it looks.

Just to be clear, I was not advocating getting runout and hanging on one piece as a good situation to get in. I was merely trying to point a situation where I would think about taking over climbing on and falling on it as healyje was advocating. I don't like blanket statements.

I agree with your comments for the OP especially the decision making process. I think the two great pieces also answers the question about doubling up pieces really well. In the general climb with pro available frequently, there isn't much need to double up pieces. When you get to a larger spacing between gear, that's normally when I decide to double up pieces at that point so that I have two good pieces between me and a much bigger fall. 

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Ancent wrote: Healyje, your definition of trad climbing is wrong. Absolutely wrong. I don't care how old you are or how much you've done. Resting on gear does not suddenly make a climb "not a trad climb." That makes no sense--absolutely none--and you've been making this silly argument before.  Again, if I climb a trad climb cleanly, and you rest, you still climbed a traditional climb. You did not reorient the style of climbing just because you took. We cannot climb the same climb, with the same gear and protection, and I climb it traditionally and you sport just because you hung. It's a simple logic game and you're incorrect. Maybe you didn't send it cleanly, didn't red point, or whatever, but you still were traditional climbing. If I do a trad climb as a single pitch, and you do it in two, with an intermediate belay, you're 2 pitch climb does not instantly become "not-a-trad-climb" because you rested on your anchor.
Actually, I'm absolutely not wrong. Again, the fact you're using gear isn't what defines trad climbing, the style does. And the sport tactic of resting, rather than bolts, was the principal source of friction between the two camps when sport initially hit the scene from France - sure bolts were considered an obnoxious desecration, but they were an entirely secondary objection to sport climbing. Resting your way up a climb may now be the very definition of climbing for most folks, but it most definitely isn't trad climbing and never was. Here's a classic commentary (one of many) at the time:

Tricksters and Traditionalists

And trust me, it became an extensive and fairly heated word war before the bolt wars with, as the article above states, lots of folks wanted FAs so annotated in guides when resting was involved

Ancent wrote:
I just copied and pasted this definition from some website, with every other source I know giving a similar one...
Except for the fact those are simplistic replications of the very wrong notion that trad is simply climbing on gear regardless of how it's done.

Ancent wrote:
Taking does not change a climb.
Now here you're absolutely right: it doesn't change the climb, it changes how you are climbing it. Without taking you're trad climbing; taking and you're sport climbing on gear. I know that's just a completely mind-bending distinction for a lot of you and I do get that that's what 'climbing' is for you, but that's the deal.

Ancent wrote:
Also your ridiculous mindset means that no one should trust gear anchors. I know you don't trust them anyway--one should always "stance"--but gear works if placed correctly.
Not even vaguely sure how you came up with this nonsense. A properly placed gear anchor is bomb as bolts (think I'm going to name my next FA that...). Now, bitd when you might arrive at a belay or the end of your rope with one or two pieces for the belay, sure different story and I do always still stance which is a good habit to get into because on onsight, multi-pich trad FA's you may not always get a bomb anchor, ditto for alpine.

Ancent wrote:
If I'm "trad' climbing,...place a bomber piece and instead of hanging on it, make a phony move to fall onto my gear as an intentional-but-hidden take, would you still deem me worth of a "traditional" climber. I didn't take! I fell just like you wanted.
Again, no resting in trad climbing - you fall, you go back to the belay and go again, trad ethics at that point revolved around whether you also pulled the rope and reclipped or not.
Kedron Silsbee · · El Paso · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 0

I'm pretty sure nobody except Healyje cares whether they're "trad" climbing or not, but a lot of people prefer not to get hurt.  

I double up pro whenever I think I might fall and one piece (even if very good) popping would lead to injury.  I prefer to have 3 good pieces between me and likely death, again assuming I think there's a good chance of falling.  Yes, I'm a wimp, yes my rack is big, yes this lowers my chance of sending, but I think not by that much.  I've redpointed one letter grade harder on bolts than I've onsighted on gear, so I don't think this wussy attitude towards gear climbing holds me back a lot.
    As to resting on pieces...I obviously try not to, since I like to send, but at some point not getting hurt is a higher priority, and at that point I will rest on an OK piece, and either recover strength, or place more gear while resting, or both.  If I think I can downclimb instead, I will.  If the piece is shaky enough I don't want to fall on it, I'd probably prefer not to take on it either if I can avoid it...taking is just used when I'm really pumped and the only remaining options seem to be either taking or climbing higher and then falling further onto it.

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Kedron Silsbee wrote: I'm pretty sure nobody except Healyje cares whether they're "trad" climbing or not, but a lot of people prefer not to get hurt.  
...
but at some point not getting hurt is a higher priority
Again climbing how you want, but not getting hurt is exactly why I stress not resting on gear and if the only choice is between resting or getting hurt then you've already seriously fucked up judgment-wise. But I do get the sense this has way less to do with getting hurt and more an aversion to taking longer falls and falling on gear in general.
Kedron Silsbee · · El Paso · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 0
Healyje wrote: Again climbing how you want, but not getting hurt is exactly why I stress not resting on gear and if the only choice is between resting or getting hurt then you've already seriously fucked up judgment-wise.
I'd agree with this to an extent, but it seems like accidents are often caused by multiple fuck-ups.  Having gotten in over my head, I see no reason to further increase my chance of getting hurt by not taking the best option available to me at the current time.
But I do get the sense this has way less to do with getting hurt and more an aversion to taking longer falls and falling on gear in general.

I'll admit to a somewhat irrational fear of long falls, but at the same time some falls are legitimately dangerous, and continuing to climb when you should take, rest and fiddle in more gear can expose you to those unnecessarily.  

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
Healyje wrote: 
Again, no resting in trad climbing - you fall, you go back to the belay and go again, trad ethics at that point revolved around whether you also pulled the rope and reclipped or not.

And what about B-Y in Tuolumne? Or you just going to ignore that because it doesn't fit neatly within the boxes and labels you've drawn up?

Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,094
eli poss wrote:

And what about B-Y in Tuolumne? Or you just going to ignore that because it doesn't fit neatly within the boxes and labels you've drawn up?

A good read regardless, but this specifically addresses the Bachar-Yerian: http://www.tomhiggins.net/index.php/style-commentaries/13-tricksters-and-traditionalists

Disclaimer: not picking a side in this fight (at least not the way this is currently going); this just happens to be relevant. 
eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
Healyje wrote: Actually, I'm absolutely not wrong. Again, the fact you're using gear isn't what defines trad climbing, the style does. And the sport tactic of resting, rather than bolts, was the principal source of friction between the two camps when sport initially hit the scene from France - sure bolts were considered an obnoxious desecration, but they were an entirely secondary objection to sport climbing. 
Why would you care about the style in which other people climb? It's just a way to inflate one's own ego. Styles come and go and change over time but rock is (relatively) permanent. You should be concerned about preserving the rock and minimizing scars to it. Preserving the rock is what really matters, not demeaning others because they climb differently. 
Russ Keane · · Salt Lake · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 392

I was wondering if anyone would like to comment on the idea that sticking two pieces near each other, is not doubling up.  Even right next to each other, if they are not connected, they are acting independently.  

This means you're not really enhancing your protection, per se.   In the OP's story, the top-most piece turned out to be irrelevant.   The piece that held was not assisted by the higher piece that pulled.

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
eli poss wrote:

And what about B-Y in Tuolumne? Or you just going to ignore that because it doesn't fit neatly within the boxes and labels you've drawn up?

Exactly, even for the day, it was a way out there edge case which it remains to this day as does Southern Belle another edge case.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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