Anchor Knots

So I typically hear/see most people using bow lines backed up with a fisherman stopper to build their anchors for TR. I tend to use a figure8 retie (also backed up with fisherman stopper). We would never tie in to our  harness with a bowline so why do we trust our anchors to it? 

My thinking behind this is 

1) figure 8 is easier to tie (all be it not much)

2) more importantly it’s easier to check if it’s done right!

*i have and would trust a anchor tied with bowlines, just curious because in a technical sense the figure 8 retie seems safer, though I obviously could be wrong that’s why I am asking

So this is a great anchor with the bowlineS

But wouldn’t it be better if they were like this 

For record this is what I mean, imagine that being a tree you’d anchor on and add a fisherman stopper knot 

i trust my tie in to a rethreaded bowline every day. It's a perfectly safe knot, and it's a weird climber lore to be leery of the bowline. IMO it should be reclaimed and new climbers should learn to tie and check such an essential knot and it's variations.

FOR THE RECORD !

Parker Cunneen wrote:

So I typically  . . . . . We would never tie in to our belay look with a bowline so why do we trust our anchors to it? 

My thinking ?. . . 

that is debatable. . .  you're comprehension of climbing gear history is lacking.                                                                                                                                                                          

  AND OMG! 

Loop,? . . . . .  no never tie into your belay LOOP! YOU SHOULD TAKE A SERIOUS LOOK AT YOUR FECUNDATION S KILLZ,  ya' need foundation skills, YA'

&

We used to practice it,  train to be able to tie a bowline one-handed, while standing in a cold shower,( spraying on your head, reducing vision.) 

Michael Schneider wrote:

FOR THE RECORD !

that is debatable. . .  you're comprehension of climbing gear history is lacking.                                                                                                                                                                          

  AND OMG! 

Loop,? . . . . .  no never tie into your belay LOOP! YOU SHOULD TAKE A SERIOUS LOOK AT YOUR FECUNDATION S KILLZ,  ya' need foundation skills, YA'

&

We used to practice it,  train to be able to tie a bowline one-handed, while standing in a cold shower,( spraying on your head, reducing vision.) 

Sorry no I don’t tie into my belay loop, misspoke their 

I’m not saying I don’t trust the bowline, I’m just wondering safety wise wouldn’t a figure 8 retie be technically safer

There is nothing wrong with the bowline. The rethreaded Fig 8 is good too but is a hassle to tie around a large tree or boulder.

Blowine is easier to tie when working with a big tree or something, easier to adjust once tied, and just as safe. Lots of people tie in with it. What makes you think it is less safe?

Parker Cunneen wrote:

I’m not saying I don’t trust the bowline, I’m just wondering safety wise wouldn’t a figure 8 retie be technically safer

No, a properly tied climber's bowline is perfectly safe. It requires a tail and a back-up knot, but so does a figure 8.  Just because it is not a common knot in the US does not mean it is an unsafe knot  (or a even less safe knot) by any means.  I would put my bowline on a bight against your figure 8 any day.  And I will be able to untie my knot after a bunch of whips.

"We would never tie in to our  harness with a bowline so why do we trust our anchors to it?"

Is that some sort of royal "we"? Many of us tie in with a bowline, the majority of the people I climb with do. Adam Ondra does as well.

Matt Himmelstein wrote:

 It requires a tail and a back-up knot, but so does a figure 8. 

A figure 8 doesn't require a backup knot.

The real reason to use a bowline around a tree, when not using a single point anchor, is because when you are anchoring around a fat tree, you don't have to first tie a figure 8 before wrapping the rope around it and guessing about how much rope you need to make the wrap, rethread, and still have enough tail .

With the bowline, you just wrap the rope, figure out how much tail you want, and then tie you knot - no guessing involved.

Parker Cunneen wrote:

I’m not saying I don’t trust the bowline, I’m just wondering safety wise wouldn’t a figure 8 retie be technically safer? 

“Safer” is an ad absurdum rabbit hole. Two ropes on two trees is maybe even safer. Or a metal chain or two chains are arguably safer. But climbing is not really ever truly safe. The proper questions regarding climbing safety are usually, “is it appropriate in this situation?” and “is it safe enough for my partner and me?” This applies to anchor material/construction, gear placements, locking biners, belay techniques, rappel preferences, and most other climbing-related safety issues. For many of us, the upsides to the bowline (ease of untying after loading is a big one) outweigh its debatable safety issues. It can be appropriate and safe enough for us. No one here can tell you if it’s safe enough for you.

We would never tie in to our harness with a bowline so why do we trust our anchors to it?

Now I’m pretty sure this thread is yet another troll

Michael Schneider wrote:We used to practice it,  train to be able to tie a bowline one-handed, while standing in a cold shower,( spraying on your head, reducing vision.) 

Yup, though I never tried it in a shower before, it is very useful if you happen to injure your hand on a climb and have to retie back in for some reason.  A bowline is easily tied with one hand if practiced.

I usually tie the first anchor with a figure 8 follow through then tie my 2nd natural anchor with a bowline as i'll typically have too much slack to tie another figure 8. Love the bowline.

Regarding bowlines....

Michael Schneider wrote:

We used to practice it,  train to be able to tie a bowline one-handed, while standing in a cold shower,( spraying on your head, reducing vision.) 

Alan Emery wrote:

Yup, though I never tried it in a shower before, it is very useful if you happen to injure your hand on a climb and have to retie back in for some reason.  A bowline is easily tied with one hand if practiced.

At the OTR prior to the NSS caving convention one year, we practiced tieing one blindfolded and one-handed (it was one of the challenges in a competition). Winning times were around 2.25 seconds.

I don’t find a properly tied bowline unsafe. It’s just harder to check it’s properly tied compared to a figure 8 so if the statically liklehood of making an error is the same regardless of knots. The statiacal likelihood you catch the error is lower on the bowline. 

The not haveingto guess how much you need around a tree argument seems best for the bowline over the figure 8. 

Parker Cunneen wrote:

I don’t find a properly tied bowline unsafe. It’s just harder to check it’s properly tied compared to a figure 8 so if the statically liklehood of making an error is the same regardless of knots. The statiacal likelihood you catch the error is lower on the bowline. 

The not haveingto guess how much you need around a tree argument seems best for the bowline over the figure 8. 

i guess, what's your question then? bowline is acceptable if tied properly anywhere a rethreaded fig 8 would be used. like most of climbing, it is on you to be able to evaluate your ability to use the tools in your repertoire in any given situation. in the instance a bowline is a reasonable way to thread a single line around a tree.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

A figure 8 doesn't require a backup knot.

Yes it does, if tied as a retrace. Figure 8 with a bight does not. Even Pro climbers have screwed up the retrace and gotten hurt.

To someone who is experienced, a bowline is easier to inspect than an 8. 8 has 3 parallel bands of 2 any of which can be crossed making the knot incorrent, bowline with Yosemite has 1. A cross over is glaring obvious.

Bowline is heavily used in rope access and technical rescue. Double long tail bowline is a big part of cleanly rigging a litter. The Sedona Blitz is based on the double albright. A cousin to the high strength bowline.

Using a bowline secured with a double fishermans for anchoring off of trees is both faster and easier in set up and break down than using a figure 8 follow through and is similar in terms of safety. When using a second tree, a bowline on a bight allows you to tie the knot anywhere in the rope without needing a sling and carabiner around the tree. This method is taught by the AMGA. If you want to take the extra time tying and untying and don't mind bringing additional gear, figure 8's work just fine. Your choice. 

I always anchor off trees with a clove hitch. I also tie in with one. Wanna top rope soon?