Ice tools - which to choose?

I'm new to ice and am looking to buy my own tools so I don't have to keep borrowing. I have been using Petzl Quarks (2nd gen) and Cassin X-all mountains. I am climbing WI3 & WI4 without too much stress, and getting into WI5. 

My curiosities are for the Petzl Nomic vs Cassin X-dream vs Grivel Tech Machine. I saw all of these being used by climbers in Ouray and their owners loved them. I'm leaning more towards X-dream because I saw more of them being used. If price point wasn't an issue, which would you choose and why?

Thanks!

I would try all three and see what feels best to you. Plus there’s nothing wrong with buying a set of All Mountains if you feel they work best for you. All three tools you mentioned are made for steep ice.

Do NOT buy ice tools just because everyone’s using them at the park.

Don't get the All-Mountains.  I started with them and you can climb hard on them for sure, but the way the shaft is bent makes the tool awkward for truly steep ice.  If you use the second grip on the shaft, your hand is further away from the ice/rock - no bueno! They don't work especially well for alpine climbing either, in my opinion.

Between Nomics, X-Dreams and Tech Machines, you really can't go wrong. I have X-Dreams and I love them, but the picks are not as durable as Nomic picks and not even close to as durable as Grivel picks.  I swung some nomics last weekend that had the new Pur Ice picks on them and they climbed just as well as my X-Dreams.  Petzl is announcing the new Nomic this weekend, so you might keep your eye out for that.

Also, looks like black diamond is releasing new reactors at the outdoor retailer show this year. Looks closer in geometry to the nomic, potentially a more drytooling oriented fuel. Might still be worth a look if you're willing to wait and have a go in them.

Trango Raptors IMO can go head-to-head with any of those high end tools.  Take them for a spin if you get the chance.  Beyond that, I'm with Nick, you'd do well with any of these tools.

Petzl Quark. It is a really nice tool that has diverse applications. You can find them pretty reasonably priced around this forum as well. I got a brand new set this season for $300.

edit: just saw the original post was from several years ago... someone bumped it to the top!

Colin Dev wrote:

edit: just saw the original post was from several years ago... someone bumped it to the top!

The original post went up 3 hours ago.  I wish MP would make the date/time of posting a little more obvious!

If you are new to ice, I would avoid any tool with recessed grips like the Nomic.  Nothing against those types of tools but you want to get your technique nailed down before you get on ice where those types of tools exceed.  You'll be better served improving with tools that don't necessary make steep ice easier.

Quarks are a good starter pair, Petzl has the best picks and the quark is a good utility tool.  DMM tools if you want to get bigger forearms; they tend to be a bit heavy; must be a Welsh thing.  Black Diamond Cobras if you have a lot of money or you can settle for used.  The new BD vipers are probably an improvement over the old ones but I haven't tried them.  Grivel Quantum techs are an awesome pure ice tool but they aren't an inspiring mixed tool.  You can still use them for it but the picks will be a bit prohibitive.

Kyle Tarry wrote:

Why learn to climb on a tool that doesn't represent the current state of ice climbing, and where ice climbing is going in the future?  If there is a significant difference between the way modern offset grip tools and more traditional tools climb, I'd suggest that is a reason not to get something that isn't state-of-the-art, because you're best off learning on the equipment you'll be using in the long run.

That being said, I personally believe that modern offset grip tools, and quasi-modern (leashless) non-offset tools (Quark, Matrix/Quantum Tech, X-All, Viper, etc.) climb similar enough, and share the same fundamentals, that a good ice climber will have no problem climbing on any of them.  More argument that the tool doesn't matter that much.

A beginner ice climber using offset tools to stave off the pump and screaming barfies from shit technique is a bad way to learn.

With top of the line equipment you can cheat as a beginner because you don't feel the consequences of doing things incorrectly on ice. This is a recipe for disaster once one starts leading.

I know my logic could possibly be misinterpreted as anything short of straight shaft tools is cheating but there is merit to using the baseline tool of the sport.  Getting your swing down in the most efficient way will take you way farther than using a high end ice tool would.

jg fox wrote:

A beginner ice climber using offset tools to stave off the pump and screaming barfies from shit technique is a bad way to learn.

With top of the line equipment you can cheat as a beginner because you don't feel the consequences of doing things incorrectly on ice. This is a recipe for disaster once one starts leading.

I disagree with this completely.  That's like refusing to use cams or nylon rope... ice climbing is extremely gear intensive, and gear today is awesome.  You should use it.  

Nick Sweeney wrote:

I disagree with this completely.  That's like refusing to use cams or nylon rope... ice climbing is extremely gear intensive, and gear today is awesome.  You should use it.  

That is an apples to oranges analogy comparing safety equipment to gear used to aid progression.

Ice climbing is not gear intensive, it is based primary on technique with greater consequences for failing when leading. 

I own Quarks and Nomics and don't see a huge difference in technique while using them, ie my technique sucks equally with both :-)

The Nomics are a little nicer to hang onto for steep stuff, better balanced when matching as well. I think they're also nicer to dagger on easy snow slopes ironically, the angle keeps your hands out of the snow. 

The Quarks are a bit lighter, plunge better. They don't come with pick weights from the factory like the Nomics which make a bigger difference on ice than the handles IMO. 

Neither one is really limiting. If you're going to climb big moderate routes with an approach and lots of snow slogging between the ice I guess I'd prefer the Quark. If you're primarily waterfall ice cragging I don't see any reason not to get the Nomic personally.

jg fox wrote:

That is an apples to oranges analogy comparing safety equipment to gear used to aid progression.

Ice climbing is not gear intensive, it is based primary on technique with greater consequences for failing when leading. 

Fair enough.  A more direct comparison: not using sticky rubber climbing shoes.  You can definitely climb hard in skate shoes, but why would you?

I've never heard someone say that ice climbing is not gear intensive.  Have you ever climbed ice without ice tools, crampons, or boots?

Nick Sweeney wrote:

 Petzl is announcing the new Nomic this weekend, so you might keep your eye out for that.

What else do you know about this? Pics? 

If you're going to drytool and are aspirational about hard grades, get an offset handled tool if you are going "quiver-of-one" with your tool purchase.  Nothing wrong with the Quarks etc, but you'll eventually want to progress anyway to a Nomic style tool if you're this kind of person.

If your aspirations start and end in the alpine, and you crag to fuel those ambitions, and don't give a shit about scratching up steep rock, go with the Quark style tool first.  You'll get a lot of mileage on your tool of choice from the get go.

If you're like most ice climbing gear whores, you'll end up with both styles of tools anyway plus many more.

Shepido wrote:

What else do you know about this? Pics? 

Found this on Petzl's fb page.

Nick Sweeney wrote:

Fair enough.  A more direct comparison: not using sticky rubber climbing shoes.  You can definitely climb hard in skate shoes, but why would you?

I've never heard someone say that ice climbing is not gear intensive.  Have you ever climbed ice without ice tools, crampons, or boots?

Again another comparison akin to using McInnes Terrodactyls to modern tools, not what I am advocating. 

If using cutting edge gear is the most important aspect of this sport than why are people not using Petzl Ergos and fruit boots on waterfall ice?  The author of Blue Lines still climbs with straight shaft tools. Good technique gets you up climbs efficiently and safely.

To answer your question I've done WI3 with one tool and WI2 with no tools to practice technique at Ouray.

Stupid arguments... Sheeeesh.... Entertaining egos however, is entertaining...

Kyle Tarry wrote:

C'mon, that's a straw man.  Nobody is advocating that.  We're advocating the best tools for the job; for WI3-5, the best tool is offset handle tools like the Nomic.

People aren't using Ergos because the geometry isn't that good for swinging into vertical ice (not everyone would agree with this, but it's the consensus).  People aren't using fruit boots because frostbite isn't really that fun.  They aren't the best tools for the job.

Sure, there are a few examples of guys who still climb on old school equipment.  On the flip side, there are FAR more examples of guys who started on straight leashed tools (and climbed very hard with them) who have transitioned to modern tools (Anker, House, Lowe(s), Gadd).  I don't think this proves much, except that a very small minority of people prefer to climb on antiquated equipment with which they are comfortable.

So have I.  Climbing picked out WI3 with 1 tool is really easy, regardless of what tool you use.  I am sure I could climb WI3 in the park with 1 leashed Venom if I had one.  This doesn't really prove anything about the appropriateness of a particular tool for a beginner, which is where this whole thing started.

Again, I'd ask if you can clarify what you mean by learning better technique with non-offset tools.  What specifically do they teach you that offset tools don't?

I learned to climb on old school straight-shaft leashed Cobras.  Nothing from that experience was beneficial the first time I swung Nomics, except for an understanding of how much better ergo tools are.  It didn't help my progression as a climber at all, it just resulted in me getting the barfies a few more times when I was learning (which, if anything, slowed my progression, rather than accelerated it).

All this being said, I think these "what ice tool should I get" threads are a bit silly, because any decent tool from any decent manufacturer will climb harder than you (and me).  We're far too obsessed with the newest shiny stuff, probably as a result of spending most of our lives looking at gear on a computer screen in a cubicle instead of using it.

This whole debate has been strawman arguments: cams, hemp rope, skate shoes... 

Simply put, my thoughts are learning to swing and get a good stick would probably better on a tool like a quark than it would be on a nomic.  You'll learn to grip the tool correctly when your fingers scream out in pain, and you'll get the swing right to utilize your energy efficiently.  It is a hard way to learn but it forces you into the mold.  Sure you can learn on a nomic but it will make things easier and you may not pick up on the nuisances of technique.  I feel the reason so many guide services have offset tools for learning classes to make things enjoyable for newbies to continue on and hopeful with their guides.

I learned how to ice climb from someone that had a very specific mentality when it came to equipment.  I simply don't have the drive to defend his philosophy despite being a subscriber.  I could quote all the sources I read over the years that I felt directly or indirectly supported it but I doubt anyone here gives a shit.

I'm done debating this and I wasn't bragging about one and no tool climbs, I was just answering someone's question and being honest about the conditions.

Briggs Lazalde wrote:

Deleted my comment.here's a tissue...the numbers show that yes winter activities are gear intensive. Without gear you would freeze and die for instance..and again..ur from long beach talkin about ice. Flag away

Although Chouinard was born in Maine, he did begin his life in sunny So Cal around 9 years of age.  I am almost certain he was not an expert ice climber by this time.  However, from the confines of surf he was able to hammer out a very early design of a technical ice tool.  

So, not sure what your dumbassss point is suppose to be... other than for entertainment value...

https://www.petzl.com/NL/en/Sport/New/NOMIC

Some details on the new Nomic coming this year