Honda CR-V or ???

John Byrnes wrote:

Still pretty damn good mileage.

So I've always understood why an average of averages isn't correct in general.  But I don't when there are only two and the bases  (miles traveled in this case) are identical?  Got a good explanation?

52.5 mpg is good no doubt. You can average miles-per-gallon (mpg) if you used the same amount of fuel both ways, but since you traveled the same distance both ways, you can only average gallons-per-mile (gpm). My formula essentially turns mpg to gpm, averages them, and then turns the result back to mpg (1/mpg = gpm).

AndrewArroz wrote:

Those seats that you can see up under the bed are actually the 3rd row seats of the Sequoia. Normally, when road-tripping, I have the all the way out. But, as you can see, the bed is fully functional with them in place. The front of the bed is a fold-over panel that actually rests on the folded down 2nd row seats. I get 72 inches of full comfort that way.

Here's another example in a Honda Element.

http://stephdavis.co/blog/dogs-and-honda-element-bed-platform/

Andrew, I dont expect to be sleeping in it often, just want that option for now and then. I'm pretty small, so the idea is the gear would just be shoved to one side, and I'd have the other. I'd also want to be able to haul stuff now and then, like my bike, in a pinch.

The Element isn't made anymore, and, like the older, more useful CRV's, it's hard to find any that haven't rolled the odometer past the big numbers a time or two.

Headed to window shop Toyota this weekend. It's looking like they may be the pick, if I go for newer. I won't be seriously shopping until January or so, I need to save up for the insurance and such.

Best, Helen

I bought  a new RAV 4 this summer. Don't like it as well as my old 2007 Escape or 1997 Outback although it's OK for the most part. As several have mentioned, the small SUVs have become more sporty and less utility.

Biggest drawback is that when the backseats are folded forward they do not lie flat--a real issue when trying to load things and have them stay put. A minor issue is that unlike most American cars, Toyota uses its proprietary software for communications such as Bluetooth,  connection to cell phone, WiFi, etc. Things go much better with just using the Google or Apple app for these things. There is a hack to allow using Google, but from what I've read it's a pain to install.

rob.calm

rob.calm wrote:

I bought  a new RAV 4 this summer. Don't like it as well as my old 2007 Escape or 1997 Outback although it's OK for the most part. As several have mentioned, the small SUVs have become more sporty and less utility.

Biggest drawback is that when the backseats are folded forward they do not lie flat--a real issue when trying to load things and have them stay put. A minor issue is that unlike most American cars, Toyota uses its proprietary software for communications such as Bluetooth,  connection to cell phone, WiFi, etc. Things go much better with just using the Google or Apple app for these things. There is a hack to allow using Google, but from what I've read it's a pain to install.

rob.calm

What do you mean about proprietary software? I have a 2015 Prius and it uses regular Bluetooth to connect the phone. 

I've been thoroughly enjoying my Mercury Mariner (Ford Escape) hybrid 4x4 for a few years now. Its a 2007 that I picked up used from a dealership with 85k milles on it, only cost me 8k and had the only known mechanical fault (electrical system coolant pump, if I'm remembering correctly) repaired by a certified mechanic. It gets ~30mpg around town, ~28 on road trips, and is super reliable/capable offroad. Something significant about the engine that hasn't been mentioned is the timing chain, which doesn't need replacement around 100k miles, saving about $500 in an unavoidable trip to a mechanic. Not sure if the other cars that fit your bill have timing belts, but belts HAVE to be replaced, which may be something you want to factor into your decision. 

It also has more space that the 03 outback I drove, the seatbacks can fold flat if you remove the headrests and/or seat cushions, and it has a ceiling that's high enough for me to sit cross legged comfortably. I'm 6'3 and can sleep diagonally in the back with two bins of gear stacked behind the drivers seat. Its comparable to the back of my buddy's tacoma with a camper top, but an inch or two narrower. It has enough clearance and 4x4 capabilities to handle the fire roads and pothole ridden highways of rural northern arizona, and has charged through over a foot of snow without issue. 

I was between a CRV and the Mariner, but CRVs with comparable mileage were thousands more and got fewer mpgs. Honda reputation perhaps.. Interestingly, my dad's 2012 CRV had tons of recall notices and repairs, as did his 07 Rav4. Meanwhile I've gotten to 130k with just oil changes and new brake pads. I definitely recomend the escape/mariner hybrid 4x4 if you can find one. Good luck!

If you plan on driving on a lot of sub par/blm roads any car or midsize just won't hold up. Everything front end related with break. Might want to think about a SUV or small truck. It will hold up much better, more room for sleeping and gear etc. Only downside is fuel efficiency which I think in the long run is better than constant repairs.   

My $.02 would still be that you could use a few tweaks to the measures you're using to meet your car buying goals.  What I'm hearing is that you want a low-cost, reliable approach vehicle for Idaho.  If so, I'd suggest the following tweaks:

Breakover angle > clearance - Many BLM road/trail "problems" I come across in ID/MT are not strictly clearance problems.  That's less true in some parts of the country, but I suspect your vehicle will get you further into your backcountry if you're buying a better breakover angle.

Cost of ownership > Consumer Reports - Repair costs are definitely important, especially if you're paying someone else to do everything.  But, as you mention, so is insurance.  And gas milage and depreciation.  I know you're planning to drive it till it dies, but if you decide you don't like your first choice you can always sell it.  A change of heart after a year might cost you a few hundred dollars, or it might cost you a few thousand.  Edmund's has a customizable cost of ownership calculator for 2010+ models.  

Records > reputation -  Reliability is good cause its cheaper, but its also good because you don't want to be 20 miles from cell reception when a wheel falls off.  Often reliable means "doesn't break" OR "repairs are cheap".  Make and model reputation is a good start, but often reliable cars will be repaired with cruddy aftermarket parts.  Or a normally questionable brand can make an "anti-lemon" (see the Land Rover back-and-forth above).  Finding a seller you trust and has records is hard: but if you can find that unicorn it can be well worth it.

Thanks for keeping the Land Rover bad reliability/lemon myth alive - makes my next Range Rover purchase even sweeter! Otherwise the prior comments are extremely valid, I think ownership of a crossover SUV in antithetical to a go-anywhere type of mountain lifestyle, eventually you'll come up against a road, or obstacle (deep creek, rocks etc.) which the RAV/CRV/Subaru is not going to be able to do, or if it does manage will not like. Sometimes there's just no substitute for gearing and clearance. 

I am actually selling two cars that would both work. The first is a 2007 Honda CR-V.  It does just what you are asking about - decent ground clearance, goes very well in the snow with AWD, and has plenty of space.  The other is a 2016 Ford F-150.  9.8” of ground clearance, can sleep in the back, and it’s 4x4.  The Honda gets 27 mpg average, the Ford gets 19 mpg average.  

Highlander Hybrid - old boxy '07. Archaic enough to play tapes, new enough to have a mostly-functional touchscreen nav (just needs an updated dvd). 4wd. Mpg isn't awesome (combined 25), but it's tons of fun, both in torque (for passing and 4wd) and in stealth mode. Silent trips through the backcountry are sweet.

It's been solid to drive and maintain. I just got new tires from the dealership where I bought it, adding free rotations to my free oil changes there, both for life. It's at 125k now, and feels smooth with the new shoes. Spark plugs are next, timing belt will last another 50k, and... that's it. 

A nice feature of hybrids is camping with the heat/ac on, where the engine only cycles on and off occasionally to keep the batteries charged. 

7 seats, sleeping room for 2.

Escape/Mariner hybrids should be good. 

Kudos to Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe. Cool twins.

The TDI sounds amazing, if you have maintenance skills and/or $$.

Newer Rav4 Hybrids should be solid, but maybe pricey. Hatchback (vs swingback) was a great update for inclement car camping in the Rav4.

CRV? Also great. 

Drive on!

Umm. ?? Used Lexus 200H a small hatch back; the back looks tiny but the seats fold flat.  The hatch back can be left open or closed or left part way open for better ventilation.. . . Your Mileage  May Vary

Chris treggE wrote:

I'll second, or third, fourth, whatever, that Subaru repairs are expensive.  2010 Outback presently.  I like the car but I won't buy another one.  

I don't know, man. Had to have some repairs made to my Impreza long time ago, cost me under 100bucks. 

PS. If irony is lost - perhaps cost of repair depends on what was being repaired. I am convinced that repairs on many vehicles being considered reliable would be quite expensive, while some repairs other vehicles would be quite cheap.

amarius wrote:

I don't know, man. Had to have some repairs made to my Impreza long time ago, cost me under 100bucks. 

PS. If irony is lost - perhaps cost of repair depends on what was being repaired. I am convinced that repairs on many vehicles being considered reliable would be quite expensive, while some repairs other vehicles would be quite cheap.

You mean like how my wife's old Volvo 240 would periodically require the replacement of some kind of vital $800 part like an "air mass meter." 

Thanks for all the additional feedback, everyone, on and offline I know I'm not the only one shopping, so this should be helpful.

It occurs to me also, that a great many of you are happily chugging along in high mileage vehicles that you will need to replace.

Unfortunately, a "utility" desert looms. So many of these are great in the older models, but everyone and their dog has jumped on squishing them down into cute uselessness. 

So. I'm off to hunt some more in the next few days. I'd rather not start with high mileage, but I also don't want to be forced into the next size up either. 

But if 4' 11" doesn't fit in the back?!?

Sheesh. 

Best, a cranky OLH

Old lady H wrote:

I'd rather not start with high mileage, but I also don't want to be forced into the next size up either. 

Something smaller and newer that hasn't been mentioned so far: Honda HR-V. They do come in AWD, but I have no idea about the sleeping conditions. 

Old lady H wrote:

Thanks for all the additional feedback, everyone, on and offline I know I'm not the only one shopping, so this should be helpful.

It occurs to me also, that a great many of you are happily chugging along in high mileage vehicles that you will need to replace.

Unfortunately, a "utility" desert looms. So many of these are great in the older models, but everyone and their dog has jumped on squishing them down into cute uselessness. 

So. I'm off to hunt some more in the next few days. I'd rather not start with high mileage, but I also don't want to be forced into the next size up either. 

But if 4' 11" doesn't fit in the back?!?

Sheesh. 

Best, a cranky OLH

One thing re. high mileage. There are certain vehicles that are KNOWN to go to 200,000-250,000 easily. That's one of the reasons I didn't flinch buying a well-cared for Sequoia with 115,000 miles on it (and that had all the 100,000 stuff like timing chain done). These tend to be heavier duty than the mini-SUV class but if you're not logging a million miles per year the difference in cost between 15 MPG and 20 MPG isn't that significant.

I have a Prius and a Sequoia. The Prius does the heavy lifting in terms of lots of mileage. The Sequoia does the actual HEAVY lifting. 

AndrewArroz wrote:

 These tend to be heavier duty than the mini-SUV class but if you're not logging a million miles per year the difference in cost between 15 MPG and 20 MPG isn't that significant.

15,000 miles a year / 15 MPG = 1000 gallons fuel * $3 a gallon = $3000 a year * 10 years = $30,000 in fuel

15,000 miles / 20 MPG = 750 gal * $3 a gallon = $2250 a year * 10 years = $22,500

Or if you get a hybrid 15,000 miles / 42 MPG = 357 gallons * $3 a gal = $1,071 a year * 10 years = $10,710

Keeping in mind most people drive more than 10 years in their life, so if you continue the trend of owning a large SUV with crappy fuel economy, you can just extrapolate these numbers for as long as you choose to drive one. This also doesent include insurance which tends to be higher on SUVs than cars, so the gap is even larger when comparing the two.