Core training, helpful or just another useless fad?

I think the ability to hold tension is more important than "core strength". 

Ive been doing dragon flag negatives, make sure to engage glutes to get hips straight. Point toes out/down, tense calves too. Hold this tension and lower as slowly as possible. 

Then I had a problem with barn dooring. I worked the pallof press. Gone.

I just started doing the Pallof Press as I'm warming up or in between hangboard sets. Not necessarily a climbing-specific position, but I think resisting rotation is an important core strength.

I've never heard of the Pallof Press before you guys mentioned it. I added it to my workout today and I think it's a pretty great exercise to add in for climbing. I have access to a gym at work so I do weights during lunch since I don't have time to get out climbing very often these days.

I find the bent press to be high value as well. It integrates core (rotational trunk stability), thoracic mobility, and hip mobility -- all essential facets of climbing. You don't need to go a muerte on the weights either, at least not for our purposes, so it makes a good rest day "lift".

Paloff press is ok, if you want a more advanced version and/or don't have access to a cable machine, rollouts on a swiss ball or an ab wheel do much the same thing.

Most climbers I see have reasonably strong abs, obliques and hip flexors, but weaker posterior chain. Desk-sitters in particular. Along with that comes anterior pelvic tilt and often some upper crossed syndrome. Deadlifts and its variations, glute bridges/hip thrusts, levers, and heavy kettlebell swings would probably be more useful for the bulk of people than front-side core exercises.

Will S wrote:

Paloff press is ok, if you want a more advanced version and/or don't have access to a cable machine, rollouts on a swiss ball or an ab wheel do much the same thing.

How do rollouts do the rotational stability component? I don't feel anything on the obliques doing a roll out.

I agree on the posterior chain, especially desk sitting. One leg romanian DL is nice for core also if you hold one weight in the opposite hand of your supporting foot. 

Nick Drake wrote:

How do rollouts do the rotational stability component? I don't feel anything on the obliques doing a roll out.

I agree on the posterior chain, especially desk sitting. One leg romanian DL is nice for core also if you hold one weight in the opposite hand of your supporting foot. 

We're talking about different variations of the Paloff. You're talking the rotational, w/cable crossbody (parallel to the width of the chest), I'm talking the kneeling overhead version w/cable perpendicular to body width.  I think of Paloff generically being a cable-loaded ex where you're increasing the lever arm by moving the cable attachement point away from the body, there are many variations. 

Will S wrote:

We're talking about different variations of the Paloff. You're talking the rotational, w/cable crossbody (parallel to the width of the chest), I'm talking the kneeling overhead version w/cable perpendicular to body width.  I think of Paloff generically being a cable-loaded ex where you're increasing the lever arm by moving the cable attachement point away from the body, there are many variations. 

Ah gotcha, it seemed that the most common reference was arms out in front, not above. 

Peter Beal wrote:

Hahahaha! It's true. You have to have something to do while the important stuff (i.e. fingers) recovers from the training that matters!  :)

Peter Beal wrote:

Mark knows what he needs and it's not kettlebell plank squat foolishness   And dude, sweet Jesus, he can do a five seconds lever? WTF?! I can't do that!

This got me thinking I was over-estimating my ability, so I timed my lever. I can do 5 seconds but my form is not perfect. Not bad, but definitely not ideal.

Regardless, too shoulder intensive for a rest day.

Apparently I don't know what I need! Because it's not like I'm rocketing up the grades.

My take on the thread so far-

Seems like the strongest climbers don't necessarily do much/any core work.

Many others feel adding some core helped their climbing.

Perhaps there is a minimum core strength needed, but exceeding that doesn't add much.

As for exercises to meet my constraints-

hollow body holds 

arm strap leg lifts (unfortunately Jake, no way to do these with footholds)

Russian twists 

incline sit ups

Pallof press (maybe a little shoulder work with these)

@ Reboot- will try to get in at lunch one of these Tues/Thursdays

@Peter- apparently the nano edge broke. I told Mike about the Beastmaker holds, hopefully he'll pick some up. 

https://www.beastmaker.co.uk/collections/micros/products/micros

Dave Mc, as usual, has the perspective: http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.ch/2010/02/what-body-tension-means.html

" .... You could go to a gym and train body strength for a decade and it would make little difference to your body tension in climbing if the above factors are not working for you already. The flip side is that many climbers have enough strength already to get a lot more body tension just by working on the technical elements."

Vaughn wrote:

These jokers must have done some core work:

Or maybe those abs just come from climbing hard shit all the time. Either way, I'd say strong core is probably good.

FWIW body builders will tell you almost everyone has visible abs if you get their body fat % low enough. There's a correlation between fitness and low body fat, of course, but visible abs indicate low body fat, not core strength.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

Many others feel adding some core helped their climbing.

A bunch of years ago I was working a route that had a hard move transitioning from a slab to steep terrain. It wasn't the crux move and I could do it every time, I had my beta dialed, it just always felt really hard every single time. Then I had some arm injuries and did a bunch of core. I was like the OP, skeptical that it would do anything to help my climbing but willing to try. When I could climb again and got a little stronger I got back on that same route. I was completely blown away---that particular move was easy, really easy. And I don't think there were any other factors that could explain it---I felt weaker in terms of overall strength compared to before, and I still used the same beta, and I didn't grow or shrink any inches. The only thing different was the core stuff. Now I'm a believer. 

I wasn't doing anything fancy, pretty much just crunches and planks, and it worked for me. I just got abs/core workout videos off of YouTube and did them. But I'm going to try some of the other ideas in this thread, thanks!

Beastmaker nano holds installed.

They are sweet.

6, 8 and 10 mm.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

Beastmaker nano holds installed.

They are sweet.

6, 8 and 10 mm.

Beat you to it: already posted on Peter's FB page earlier this week :)

I found a great article on the topic and thought it was worth bumping the thread: Functional Core Training by Mark Anderson

Mark E Dixon wrote:

But nobody suggests calf raises as a vital training ingredient.

Haha, it's funny to read this thread again and see this comment. It's funny because I'm doing exactly this, lots of calf raises to train for my project! Hopefully by this weekend I will know whether it helps or not. But yes, in general I agree that calf raises aren't vital to any climber's training.

Neely Quinn: Yeah, so if shorter climbers need more finger strength, is there something like that for taller climbers?

Tom Randall: Ah okay yeah, that’s a really interesting point actually. If we rank all the different performance markers that we look at in the profiling, the taller climber has an advantage in every single area.

[laughter]

Neely Quinn: I knew it!

Tom Randall: Except for one, and that is core strength. So the tallest climbers need to have the best core strength for the grade. That’s the one area they cannot neglect.

Definitely can attest to that.  My core gets wrecked when working roof boulder problems or steep sport climbs.

The Lattice guys just posted a core workout very heavy on crunches  

I'm kind of dubious  

Anybody seen it and have an opinion?

I'll try to post a link later  

Mark E Dixon wrote:

The Lattice guys just posted a core workout very heavy on crunches  

I'm kind of dubious  

Anybody seen it and have an opinion?

It's pretty generic stuff. If it was anybody else I'd be very skeptical, but it's one of the 2 wide boyz and crunches are pretty helpful for inverted OW.