Devils Tower in June – 22 years after the voluntary June closure started – What do people think now?

It definitely sounds like it's an issue of either awareness or willingness to comply. I've always abided by the ban, but I occasionally forget that it exists. What's the NPS's plan to decrease non-compliance?

If I put myself in the place of someone who has driven halfway across the country to climb the Tower in June, only to find out it is voluntarily closed I might have a tough decision to make. Seems to me it would be easier if there was a quality explanation of the native traditions being protected and a list of alternative local climbing areas  nearby all posted on site during the month of June. Maybe you guys do that already?

Two more Qs Lucas.  

1) If I climb DT once a day every day in June - do I count as 1 person or 30?   

2) are any of these climbers guided parties?  If yes, how many of them?  

James Schroeder wrote:

Lucas,

Are the numbers adjusted to account for what I am assuming is an overall increase in the popularity of climbing the Tower in all months? Specifically, does the NPS measure the percent of the total that take place in June, or just the outright number of June climbers? I would assume that the Tower sees more ascents now than 22 years ago, and that the NPS would (maybe should) consider the ban to be at least mildly successful if the percent of climbs in June is shrinking, even if the total might be growing slightly. In the end, for me it's just intellectual curiosity. I think we should all be respectful of the place and everyone that finds it sacred.

Why pretend like we as a country repect the native people.. we murdered and stole like 90% of there land and we have a national holiday celebrating the original rapist/murdering European... 

Lets not throw them scraps.. and lets call a spade a spade.. I say climb the tower in June

crackatoa wrote:

Why pretend like we as a country repect the native people.. we murdered and stole like 90% of there land and we have a national holiday celebrating the original rapist/murdering European... 

Lets not throw them scraps.. and lets call a spade a spade.. I say climb the tower in June

the debate for whether or not to climb the tower in june will never be settled. but if the question is how to get people to follow the voluntary closure, the answer is to make it mandatory. 

crackatoa wrote:

Why pretend like we as a country repect the native people.. we murdered and stole like 90% of there land and we have a national holiday celebrating the original rapist/murdering European... 

Lets not throw them scraps.. and lets call a spade a spade.. I say climb the tower in June

That's some sound logic you've got there.

This is about as no-brainer of an issue as I can think of...pardon the pun. ;)

James Schroeder wrote:

It definitely sounds like it's an issue of either awareness or willingness to comply. I've always abided by the ban, but I occasionally forget that it exists. What's the NPS's plan to decrease non-compliance?

If I put myself in the place of someone who has driven halfway across the country to climb the Tower in June, only to find out it is voluntarily closed I might have a tough decision to make. Seems to me it would be easier if there was a quality explanation of the native traditions being protected and a list of alternative local climbing areas  nearby all posted on site during the month of June. Maybe you guys do that already?

If I put myself in that person's place, the first thought I would have would be "Wow, I'm an idiot.  I drove halfway across the country without doing a simple internet search to determine whether I'd actually get to do any climbing."

Jake wander wrote:

i say either make it mandatory or leave people alone about it.

This was tried. The original closure was a ban on issuing guiding permits for June. Local guides (some of which still operate in the area) sued, arguing that this violated the 1st Amendment. A federal court agreed. The NPS resorted to a voluntary closure, which was also challenged in court, but never ruled upon because the guiding companies couldn't prove monetary loss and thus didn't have standing.

I've never heard an explanation of why the original ban only included guided climbers and not private recreational climbers. I would expect that guides and clients were not the bulk of climbers in June or any other time, so banning them wouldn't drastically limit the number of people climbing the tower.

James Schroeder wrote:

It definitely sounds like it's an issue of either awareness or willingness to comply. I've always abided by the ban, but I occasionally forget that it exists. What's the NPS's plan to decrease non-compliance?

If I put myself in the place of someone who has driven halfway across the country to climb the Tower in June, only to find out it is voluntarily closed I might have a tough decision to make. Seems to me it would be easier if there was a quality explanation of the native traditions being protected and a list of alternative local climbing areas  nearby all posted on site during the month of June. Maybe you guys do that already?

James,

You are right: the issue is both a willingness to comply and a lack of awareness. The NPS current plan to increase compliance is through education and outreach. This forum post is part of that. We talk to climbers that we see at the tower about it. Most know about the closure but have little understanding about it. We do have information here at the Tower about other nearby local climbing areas and post information about the ceremonies that take place here during June as well as the rest of the year. There was one party last year that traveled to the Tower not knowing about the closure and planning to climb. They decided not to climb after talking to one of the other climbing rangers here.  We also work with the local climbing organization (Black Hills Climbing Coalition) to try and increase awareness. 

Chris treggE wrote:

Two more Qs Lucas.  

1) If I climb DT once a day every day in June - do I count as 1 person or 30?   

2) are any of these climbers guided parties?  If yes, how many of them?  

The graph only goes back to 2001 because guides we don't have accurate data on guiding before that time. 2014 data is missing.

Just to add, ~20% of annual climbers are guided parties. But in June, you can see the percentage is much higher.

If one person climbed 30 days in June, they would count as 30.

If an action is voluntary, it is unrealistic to expect everyone to volunteer.

Even if mandatory, not everyone will comply.

IIRC, the compromise voluntary closure was reached because the Park Service did not want to be sued for violating the establishment clause- i.e. explicitly favoring one religion at the expense of others.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Climbers and Native Americans share many values. But Native Americans, as far as I can see, will ban climbing on traditional lands every chance they get. 

Witness Cave Rock, Monument Valley and Devil's Tower. Again IIRC, the tribes would have much preferred to ban climbing totally at Devil's Tower.

All that being said, climbing elsewhere in June seems like a pretty good way to keep the peace.

Is the concept that Indians want to do things at Devils Tower in June and having climbers there will interfere with what they want to do?  If so, what are those things?  And when and where are the Indians there?  Does the closure need to be for the entire Tower for the entire month of June?  There are seasonal bird closures, but they don't affect the entire Tower--only the parts used by the birds.  Could Indians say what dates and times they will performing ceremonies at the Tower, and ask for climbers to refrain from climbing in proximity at those times (if that's what's happening)?

Or is it that the mere act of climbing in June is offensive to (some) Indians, regardless of whether the Indians are present?  

If the second, it is really just climbing in June that is offensive?  And if so, when did Indians decide to correlate when they are offended with the Roman god Juno?

And is it really just climbing the Tower that is offensive?  That seems rather far-fetched.

Another observation (that has been made to some extent by others, in this and the similar threads that have been on MP going back many years):  if you have a goal of trying to persuade people to comply with the "voluntary ban" of not climbing in June, the threat that non-compliance will lead to a real ban on climbing in June is not a very powerful threat.  On the contrary, it would encourage a rational actor to climb in June as much as possible before the real ban is enacted.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

If an action is voluntary, it is unrealistic to expect everyone to volunteer.

Even if mandatory, not everyone will comply.

IIRC, the compromise voluntary closure was reached because the Park Service did not want to be sued for violating the establishment clause- i.e. explicitly favoring one religion at the expense of others.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Climbers and Native Americans share many values. But Native Americans, as far as I can see, will ban climbing on traditional lands every chance they get. 

Witness Cave Rock, Monument Valley and Devil's Tower. Again IIRC, the tribes would have much preferred to ban climbing totally at Devil's Tower.

All that being said, climbing elsewhere in June seems like a pretty good way to keep the peace.

Agreed.  We are trampling over their sacred monument, and complaining that we have to take 1/12 months off?!  Pushing this will only make matters worse.

Isn't the trend flat or even down over the last few years?

Ken Johnson wrote:

Isn't the trend flat or even down over the last few years?

It is up.  Already discussed above.

No wonder there is a communication issue.

I think one person pointed it out, but think about how offensive just the name Devils Tower is. It'd be like renaming Bethlahem to Satanville.

A mandatory closure would probably run afoul of the establishment clause, but also think about how many times the letter or spirit of the establishment clause has been ignored in favor of Judeo-Christian values (and I say that as the descendant of more than 1 Methodist minister). The very least we can do is respect a voluntary closure. 

If nearly half of climbers in June are guided climbers, compared to only 20% for the rest of the year, wouldn't low hanging fruit be to try to work with the guides to respect the closure? Yea I realize making a living is important but a mandatory closure will hurt as well... 

It would also be interesting to know actually how many unique climbers there are in June compared to the rest of the months -- not just the number of "climber days". I'm thinking perhaps of a couple euros who travels to the tower in June knowing routes will be relatively empty (or not) and climb every day for 2 weeks, thus each counting as "14 climbers" in the NPS data. Is the increase in June climber days over time fewer unique climbers climbing more days in June? Is this actually an increase in unique climbers or an increase in "climber days" from fewer unique climbers??? 

Thank you for your transparency, Lucas. This is fascinating on several different planes. 

Nolan Huther wrote:

To those who don't want to read the whole comment, the summation is "The Holy Spiritual Sport of Rock Climbing > Indian Things"

But to address one specific point, yes, even though you say it's far fetched, many Native Americans do consider climbing Bear Lodge not only offensive, but equivalent to desecration. Maybe they think climbed are bigoted and self centered. This post doesn't make me inclined to argue that point.

Edit to clarify: also, it seems like a misconception that we are innocent and minding our own business and Native Americans are being offended. Instead, we are actively and blatantly insulting them and their culture. Source: basically the entirey of Euro-American history

That's quite a "summary" of my post--perhaps you should add yourself to list of people who "don't want to read the whole comment" and move on from my posts rather than mischaracterize them.

But if you'd like to work on your précis skills --here's another one you can try, from http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2975165&tn=20

There is very little, if any, evidence that Devils Tower was ever a religious pilgrimage site. A vast majority of tribes that historically used the area attach no significant meaning to the feature, other than as landmark.

The June voluntary closure is classic squeaky wheel politics. An extremely small, yet very vocal, group of Native Americans and the “white guilt”-types have made this policy. Singling out a single user group of the monument is simply a minimalist approach to placating the most vocal.

I don't know whether the poster is correct in his statements made in the first paragraph -- but I've never really seen anything inconsistent with it, and I'm skeptical that there was ever anything like a historical view of Indian people that climbing DT was bad.  Would it even occur to anyone without modern climbing equipment and/or tools?

Jimmy Sledd wrote:

I think one person pointed it out, but think about how offensive just the name Devils Tower is. It'd be like renaming Bethlahem to Satanville.

A mandatory closure would probably run afoul of the establishment clause, but also think about how many times the letter or spirit of the establishment clause has been ignored in favor of Christian values (and I say that as the descendant of more than 1 Methodist minister). The very least we can do is respect a voluntary closure. 

Fixed that for you. But yes, I agree this is one situation where I would turn a blind eye to the establishment cause, and I would be morally justified in doing so.

Thanks Lucas for bringing this topic back up. I personally and professionally have a big interest in the Tower, and have always been left wanting on information specifically on this issue.

The park service at DT does some of the best work at tracking climbing numbers and data of any climbing destination in the country, and it's great to see that data translated into concrete percentages and graphs. As with any somewhat complicated usage problem, I believe this is far from black and white. Ultimately, I think the time has come again to engage with the relevant tribes and see what they think. That's the only real way to see if there actually IS still a problem or not. It's great to see that conversation has begun. 

There is very little, if any, evidence that Devils Tower was ever a religious pilgrimage site. A vast majority of tribes that historically used the area attach no significant meaning to the feature, other than as landmark.

The June voluntary closure is classic squeaky wheel politics. An extremely small, yet very vocal, group of Native Americans and the “white guilt”-types have made this policy.  Singling out a single user group of the monument is simply a minimalist approach to placating the most vocal.

I take responsibility for that statement. According to the report "Ethnographic Overview and Assessment of Devils Tower National Monument, Wyoming"[1], there were historically 23 tribes that could have passed through or used the area around Devils Tower. Of those, 6 had specific recent (1800’s) ties to the Tower. Only one has current ceremonies there in June.

The Arapahoe, Cheyenne, Crow, and Kiowa had creation stories (bears, kids, fantasy), but no specific documented modern usage.

The Shoshone, “this place is a major center of power and climbing on it is not only sacrilegious, but also dangerous to those who do not "respect" it. They felt that to protect climbers from any adverse effects. Climbing should be prohibited.”  Stands at odds with many petroglyphs on large features which would require climbing to reach. But ok.

The Lakota, mentioned climbing as detrimental, but it was a second order issue. The chief complaint was not being able to shut down the road and keeping monument visitors away. Anything less than a return to sovereign land is a failure from the Lakota point of view. (A bit beyond the scope of this closure and discussion, since there is no realistic way to turn back the totality of Lakota real-estate claims.)

I stand by my claim to the number of Indians who object to climbing on the Tower is pretty small, but vocal about their grievances, of which climbing is only one of many. Since the climbers volunteered to volunteer, we have what we have.

Every NA I've talked to at the tower wants to know:
1) How'd you get up there?
2) How do you get down?
3) Is it scary?
4) What's up there?

Sample size, probably 50. Mostly Lakota and Crow.

[1] United States Department of the Interior, National Park Service, "Ethnographic Overview and Assessment of Devils Tower National Monument, Wyoming" (1997). Natural Resources-Planning, Management, and Conservation. Paper 4.