Women and Climbing: Black Diamond, would you fix this?

I agree with Lady H, my girlfriend has a BD harness that doesnt fit her body shape. The waist belt doesnt seat correctly above her hips and the legs just wont tighten enough. 

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote:

I agree with Lady H, my girlfriend has a BD harness that doesnt fit her body shape. The waist belt doesnt seat correctly above her hips and the legs just wont tighten enough. 

Sounds like your girlfriend should have bought a different harness...Doesn't sound like that's a DB problem.  My wife tried on a pair of La Sportiva Solutions, they didn't fit her foot well.  The toes box was too wide, and the heel cup was a little loose...she bought a different shoe... 

Old lady H wrote:

Then why not ONLY write to Black Diamond privately to express your opinion? Yes, you wrote to BD. But you also posted to an open forum to stir a pot that's pretty dry.

It's just a matter of it not making sense for their business, nothing to do with trying to exclude a certain group of people. If there was more of a demand then they would be selling them; otherwise, it would cost too much to design, build, and test to be profitable. Was also going to say contact Misty Mountain and get something custom. 

mstolorena wrote:

It's just a matter of it not making sense for their business, nothing to do with trying to exclude a certain group of people. If there was more of a demand then they would be selling them; otherwise, it would cost too much to design, build, and test to be profitable. Was also going to say contact Misty Mountain and get something custom. 

Considering they have 19 harness models, I'm finding the argument that it's too much money to make a smaller size hard to believe.

jmmlol wrote:

Considering they have 19 harness models, I'm finding the argument that it's too much money to make a smaller size hard to believe.

For a gear manufacturer, It’s not just the cost of producing something, you also have to take in the consideration of having your capital tied up in products that sit in a warehouse or on the shelf of a retail store for a year, then possibly have to go on sale/clearance. Go look at harnesses on sale at REI right now I bet you most of them are XS or XL.
https://www.rei.com/rei-garage/c/climbing-harnesses?r=c&origin=web&pagesize=84&ir=category%3Aclimbing-harnesses&sort=relevance&outlet=true

I worked for a gear/clothing company that went bankrupt. One of their downfalls (besides inept upper management) was that they had too much capital tied up in stuff that didn’t sell, so they couldn’t even pay their manufacturers to make new products. We had so much XS and XL stuff hanging on the clearance racks, while customers were coming in looking for S-M-L and going home empty handed. 

All companies, from Black Diamond to Misty Mountain, need to make money to stay in business. They can choose to specialize in one product and make sure they can cover the entire range of sizes in the general population, or they can choose to make everything from t-shirts to via ferrata lanyards and focus their attention on a range of sizes that’s more profitable. It’s a business decision, not Black Diamond sending a "subtle message to the ladies out there that they are not welcome as route setters, big wall climbers, SAR members, route developers, or other important roles as climbers."

aikibujin wrote:

For a gear manufacturer, It’s not just the cost of producing something, you also have to take in the consideration of having your capital tied up in products that sit in a warehouse or on the shelf of a retail store for a year, then possibly have to go on sale/clearance. Go look at harnesses on sale at REI right now I bet you most of them are XS or XL.
https://www.rei.com/rei-garage/c/climbing-harnesses?r=c&origin=web&pagesize=84&ir=category%3Aclimbing-harnesses&sort=relevance&outlet=true

I worked for a gear/clothing company that went bankrupt. One of their downfalls (besides inept upper management) was that they had too much capital tied up in stuff that didn’t sell, so they couldn’t even pay their manufacturers to make new products. We had so much XS and XL stuff hanging on the clearance racks, while customers were coming in looking for S-M-L and going home empty handed. 

All companies, from Black Diamond to Misty Mountain, need to make money to stay in business. They can choose to specialize in one product and make sure they can cover the entire range of sizes in the general population, or they can choose to make everything from t-shirts to via ferrata lanyards and focus their attention on a range of sizes that’s more profitable. It’s a business decision, not Black Diamond sending a "subtle message to the ladies out there that they are not welcome as route setters, big wall climbers, SAR members, route developers, or other important roles as climbers."

They don't have to produce the same amount of product for the odd sizes. if Misty Mountain can customize a size, I have no doubt larger companies can find a way to be profitable. 

As someone who wears XS or S, most sale stuff is in the L/XL range. Finding even an S on a sale rack in something that didn't sell because it's ugly is hard.

I don't think you can compare Misty to BD, and you can bet that BD has done that market research on smaller sizes and found it to not be worth their time or cash. Oranges to tangerines on who their target market is, what their suppliers are, volume of sales, etc. BD doesn't fit? Try another company. I simply don't understand why people struggle with that. BD fits me crappy so I wear something else, but I'm not petitioning BD to make something my size in the meantime. 

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote:

I agree with Lady H, my girlfriend has a BD harness that doesnt fit her body shape. The waist belt doesnt seat correctly above her hips and the legs just wont tighten enough. 

Maybe she should try mens sizes if she doesn't already/if she can, they often have smaller leg loops for the same waist size as women's. BD fits me great, I need the larger legs. I just want bigger/more gear loops.

I'm not sure how the sizing is "outdated" and they need to "consider moving into the current millennium" because they don't have an XS in one, specific purpose, harness. And if you're not sure what size will fit you, there's a nice handy chart for you that's linked to on every page for each of BD's harnesses. I fit in Men's M underwear, but a L harness. That's why I looked up what size would fit me best, and guess what? My BD Momentum harness fits me perfectly. I've lost a bit of weight since I first got it so it's now cinched down all the way, but it's still comfortable, and I've hung in it for 45+ minutes hanging up a tree swing before. If you need a harness to go that small, get one of these, they go down to 22" waist!

http://www.everestgear.com/448347.html?cmp=googleproducts&kw=448347

Thanks to everyone for all your input, particularly since I will apparently have to replace my tried and true Big Gun harness with another brand/make. 

I was curious, because I know my waist size is currently 30", too big still, honestly, but my harness is cinched as far as it goes. Black Diamond's sizing chart does indeed say that small fits 27", but if so, that would be a pretty loose fit. Okay for some things, but not for others.

So, out comes the tape measure. Yeah, still too much around my middle.

Out comes the ruler. Ah. Now I get it. Sigh...

The Big Gun "small" is simply...not small. For many of us.

I did have a nice reply from Black Diamond, the gear loops would have to change, all that, as many of you said. It still just seems a reasonable idea to have a normal range of sizes offered in the first place.

The maximum overlap (as small as possible).

The actual measurement of the harness is well past 30". No way it goes down to 27", except fitting loosely. :-(

And, no, I no longer expect anything from Black Diamond on this, sadly. I like my Big Gun, but I was not the one to buy it originally, and would have bought something else, had I known.

Best, Helen

Did you try emailing or calling BD?

Tradiban wrote:

Did you try emailing or calling BD?

Yes, that's the exchange mentioned above.

John, the small is both my personal harness.and what is available to me to wear out as a setter. The fit is the same: tight as I can get it.

At least I've shrunk some. :-) I used to be able to get by in the medium, and still could make do, but pretty uncomfortably.

OLH

John Wilder wrote:

Did you consider that you may have a mislabeled harness? Wouldn't be the first time I've seen it happen. 

That has happened to me with a BD Momentum harness in the past. It was labeled a M but was actually a XS. I couldn't get it even over my thighs. 

Old lady H wrote:

Thanks to everyone for all your input, particularly since I will apparently have to replace my tried and true Big Gun harness with another brand/make. 

I was curious, because I know my waist size is currently 30", too big still, honestly, but my harness is cinched as far as it goes. Black Diamond's sizing chart does indeed say that small fits 27", but if so, that would be a pretty loose fit. Okay for some things, but not for others.

So, out comes the tape measure. Yeah, still too much around my middle.

Out comes the ruler. Ah. Now I get it. Sigh...

The Big Gun "small" is simply...not small. For many of us.

I did have a nice reply from Black Diamond, the gear loops would have to change, all that, as many of you said. It still just seems a reasonable idea to have a normal range of sizes offered in the first place.

The maximum overlap (as small as possible).

The actual measurement of the harness is well past 30". No way it goes down to 27", except fitting loosely. :-(

And, no, I no longer expect anything from Black Diamond on this, sadly. I like my Big Gun, but I was not the one to buy it originally, and would have bought something else, had I known.

Best, Helen

The harnesses are usually labeled not by the length of the waist strap precisely, but rather by what a reasonable person might wear under the harness. This is a harness designed for big-wall/multipitch climb. People are probably wearing couple layers of clothing under this harness. And probably don't want the daylight squeezed out of their waist for many hours/days straight.

From your photo it looks like the waist belt is extending just an inch past the 30inch measure. And it is supposed to fit 27-30 inch waist people. What exactly is your problem with this?

You have your harness for gym setting, it fits you. Say thank you, and let it go. Stop worrying about who it might or might not fit under what circumstances, people can take care of their own needs. Is there a long line of routesetters wringing their hands because they can't find a harness? I don't think so!

You have your harness for gym setting, it fits you. Say thank you, and let it go. Stop worrying about who it might or might not fit under what circumstances, people can take care of their own needs. Is there a long line of routesetters wringing their hands because they can't find a harness? I don't think so! 

So...I get why you would send this e-mail to BD, but how is posting it here going to help?  Are you hoping to find a BD employee lurking the forums? Lol.

On the subject of gripes to scream at the void: I really wish companies would acknowledge that "low volume" does not necessarily equate to "women" and would make larger sizes of LV shoes.  As a proud owner of size 13 twig feet, finding shoes that are both long enough and narrow enough (in the heels) for my feet is a struggle.

Ted Pinson wrote:

So...I get why you would send this e-mail to BD, but how is posting it here going to help?  Are you hoping to find a BD employee lurking the forums? Lol.

On the subject of gripes to scream at the void: I really wish companies would acknowledge that "low volume" does not necessarily equate to "women" and would make larger sizes of LV shoes.  As a proud owner of size 13 twig feet, finding shoes that are both long enough and narrow enough (in the heels) for my feet is a struggle.

"The answer, my friend, is pissing in the wind, the answer is pissing in the wind"

from another forum

OLH

Ted, yes, sometimes businesses do track what is being said out there. Now and then, there have even been responses.

Lena, this was meant as a ( very mildly provocative) thread to encourage a mainstream company to acknowledge that climbing is changing, and, to take the opportunity to meet that expanding market.

That includes not just women, of course, but plenty of guys, and, really important, a huge potential wave of young people.

There are now a few climbing teams in high schools, when climbing hits the Olympics, that will explode.

As for the Big Gun? However BD chooses to market the thing, it has become a mainstream, average person harness for those who wish to give back with their climbing. Read the reviews in my first post: route setters, developers, search and rescue, the vast majority volunteers. And, technical rescue, guides, and other pro climbers.

Why not have a slightly wider size range to better accommodate that market?

As evidence of that market's importance, Google REI. They have a major campaign running this year. Guess who they are targeting? Lol!

And yes, I will speak up as I see fit. I like BD, and this product, and am saying so to both the company, and in public.

After all, if it is not available, how can a "demand" be shown to exist, if no one ever says anything?

Best, Helen

wendy weiss wrote:

Thanks, Lena. That pretty much sums it up.

PS -- I just looked at your profile and I think you need to improve your following skills.

Heh, yes, my following skills really suck.