Using a tagline, which rope do you pull on?

I have a question about using a tagline. I’ve read that when most people carry a tagline to make 200 ft rappels they rappel off of the thicker lead line and then pull down the tagline to retrieve the ropes. That doesn’t seem to make sense to me because you’d be screwed if the lead line got stuck on the way down. Can you rappel on both ropes and then pull the lead rope first? Then the tagline would be the rope going through the anchor and the knot tying the ropes together would be on the lead rope side of the anchor, so you would want the tagline to be thicker right? Would a 7mm tagline work for pulling the lead line first? I just bought an 8mm tagline, but it's way to heavy. Thank you in advance.

-Adam

So there are two ways to use a tagline. But either way you are gonna get in a lot of trouble if your tag line or your lead line gets stuck. If you use an appropriately thick, 6 or 7mm is common, tagline as a second rope, you can rappel down off both ropes. They are tied together with a fisherman's or figure 8, whatever style you have learned is appropriate, and the knot can either be on the lead side or the tag side, and you pull the side with the knot to get down. If you are going to feed the tag line through your rappel device be very careful and play around to make sure your belay device can hold firmly on both the tagline and the thicker leadline. In this technique you trust your life to the integrity of the knot and the tagline, as if either fails, you are in a world of trouble.

The other technique is to use a much thinner tagline, 4 or 5 mm, and secure the rope to the anchors by placing a bight on the end of the lead line and clipping it back to itself. Something like this

Where the blue line would be your tag line, or in this sense you might call it a pull cord. In this configuration, the second line would not be weighted in your rappel device (it can be fed through or not, up to you) and you would be rappelling off your lead line as a single rope rappel, and the pull cord would be used to pull the carabiner down to retrieve the rappel ropes. As such, the rope just has to be thick enough to pull comfortably as you will not weight it. The rope is more likely to get stuck with this technique, as the loop and carabiner can get caught on obstacles, but it allows the tagline to be much lighter and your life is not trusted to the tagline, if the tagline is cut, the block will prevent the rope from pulling through.

There are pros and cons to each technique which have been discussed at length on forums and by people more knowledgeable than myself. I hope that helps.

Depends on how thick your tagline is. The opposite rope pulled ends up being the primary line because of where the knot is in the system so if it's not thick enough it's not safe to set the tagline up as a primary line. For example, my tagline is a 6mm static cord and the way I set up a rap is tying the lead line to the tagline with the tagline on the pull side. I then put a biner block on the lead line so in the event that the tagline is cut the lead line still can't be pulled through the anchor.

If you wanted to be able to pull the lead line down first you would have to trust your full weight to the tagline and hope it doesn't break. Also, good luck getting enough friction from your rap device on a 6 or even 7mm line. When I rap with a tagline I thread it through my device as normal but it's just for rope management. No weight is applied to the tagline.

I have on occasion used an 8mm half rope as a tagline and just set it up as a normal double rope rap without the biner block because the 8mm is thick enough to be a primary line.

you usually want to keep the anchor (ring, quicklink or sling) on the thicker rope because the rappel device generate more friction on thicker rope. If you don't do that, the skinny rope (tagline) might slide at the anchor point and the 2 sides will ended up with different length.

This is especially important if you rappelling directly from a sling (you should probably not do that anyway) because you could burn through it.

Another way to do biner blocks is a small locker on a clove hitch, not clipped in to the other side of the rope. It's less safe than clipping the biner into the other side of the rope but it's also much less likely to get stuck on a pull. As long as the biner can't fit through the rings it will hold.

I heard if you pull on the wrong rope too much you go blind!.. Or was it hairy palms?

You always pull the thinner one. Well, I don't pull on the umm thinner umm one but umm.

Can I steal this thread?

What percentage of you guys use a biner-block method? What percentage does a standard 2-rope rappel with the skinny tag?

I carry a 30 ish foot peice of 3mm line. If I need a slightly longer rope to get down, I will tie a biner block offset from the center of my lead rope, and tie the thin cord to the shorter side to extend it as a pull cord. This is the compromise for me because if it's any longer or bulkier I tend to not bring it with me and don't it when I need it. 30 feet of paracord fits in my pocket and works in a pinch. It's a little awkward since you sort of have to guess how far to offset the rope. If I were smart I might measure it out and put a marker on my rope but I am not.

EthanC wrote:I carry a 30 ish foot peice of 3mm line. If I need a slightly longer rope to get down, I will tie a biner block offset from the center of my lead rope, and tie the thin cord to the shorter side to extend it as a pull cord. This is the compromise for me because if it's any longer or bulkier I tend to not bring it with me and don't it when I need it. 30 feet of paracord fits in my pocket and works in a pinch. It's a little awkward since you sort of have to guess how far to offset the rope. If I were smart I might measure it out and put a marker on my rope but I am not.

this technique can also be rigged by clipping all your slings/draws/cams/shoelaces together to make the pull cord.

If you can't see how far down you have to go one person raps first with all the extender material and makes a quick anchor mid rap where the next anchor is visible. That person adjusts the rope so that it reaches the next anchor, person back at the top belay readjusts the stopper knot, and then the first person raps down. I've only had to use it once or twice. it sucks and is time consuming, but sometimes is your only option if you've got limited extender material and every inch counts.

John Wilder wrote:This is why I trail a single half rope- I like the added security of being able to lead on that in a pinch to go get my lead line if it gets hung up. Mine is 8mm, as thin as I'm willing to go, and i don't really think its that heavy. The flat reality with tag lines is that you are sacrificing some level of safety in favor of less weight. Speed can absolutely be safety, so I'm not necessarily advocating one way or the other. I prefer to climb with a single rope and no trail line if at all possible- very few areas I climb at require a second line, a 70m or 80m line will do the trick.

After getting rope hung up multiple times in Red Rocks I do the same as John. Not worth the risk of being stuck on a ledge with only a thin cord to work with.

EthanC wrote:They are tied together with a fisherman's or figure 8, whatever style you have learned is appropriate

Keeriste, I know I've been out of it for a while, but a figure 8 is absolutely, 100% NOT the way to join rap ropes, ever... It inverts. EDK all the way. Fcuking hell, tie a figure 8 and you're gonna die...

EthanC wrote:They are tied together with a fisherman's or figure 8, whatever style you have learned is appropriate

Keeriste, I know I've been out of it for a while, but a figure 8 is absolutely, 100% NOT the way to join rap ropes, ever... It inverts. EDK all the way. Fcuking hell, tie a figure 8 and you're gonna die...

Eric Coomer wrote: Keeriste, I know I've been out of it for a while, but a figure 8 is absolutely, 100% NOT the way to join rap ropes, ever... It inverts. EDK all the way. Fcuking hell, tie a figure 8 and you're gonna die...

A Figure 8 bend (Flemish bend) is perfectly acceptable:
animatedknots.com/fig8join/…

A flat figure 8 (eg tie a EDK with an 8 instead of an overhand) is not.

Dylan B wrote:120 meter rope. Forget the shenanigans.

HAHA I'm on board with this guy!!

i usually use two lead ropes... whats with all the girly size 6mm and 7mm ropes??? stop being lazy and weak and carry a lead rope.

Either use halves/twins ... Or use a half as a tag line

Its safer and has less faff

Not only can you lead back up if needed, you can simply pull the rope through on the next anchor ... No need to keep feeding one side and/or retie

I use a biner block quite often but usually on a single rope with a grigri

;)

I used a "tagline" for the first time a year or so ago -- 7mm static.

The reduced weight and bulk sure was nice, but it was so light it kept getting blown around and tangled up. And pulling on 7mm cord sucked -- too thin to grab easily.

I'll stick to using a half rope as my second line.

Tom Sherman wrote:Can I steal this thread? What percentage of you guys use a biner-block method? What percentage does a standard 2-rope rappel with the skinny tag?

Percentages?

For trad climbing, I always use a biner-rig to rap. It's easy to add a biner to increase the friction when you have a skinny/new lead and/or tag line. It has more mass and more surface area so it doesn't get so hot. And it's way smoother.

I do a standard rap. The skinny line will move faster if you let it, but it's not as bad as with an ATC-like device.

"120 meter rope. Forget the shenanigans"

Dylan you sandbagger. Having climbed on said 120m rope, I can assure that shenanigans abound. Last time I put in 3 pieces of protection in about 400 feet to avoid the rope drag from hell. And coiling that thing.... fuggedaboudit

Thank you to everyone for the great info! Super helpful

Adam, if the tag line is thin, e.g. 5mm, you have to pull the tag line, if you don't the tag will blow away.