Waimea Perma Draw Discussion

James it sucks that people who have no context or experience with the routes involved fucked up your thread.

Jay perhaps this should get locked or removed.. it's pretty sad.

Maybe we'll get a chance to shit on one of their trail work crag day threads since nice clean trails are an eyesore and damage the environment and they are just for convenience instead of bushwacking through the bushes.

Tom Etc from out of state go read up on LOCAL ethics.

Tom.. butt the fuck out man.

I've been talking with some friends who want to get on Predator but are scared away by the tattered draws and worn biners. As a Rumney frequenter I am all for putting permadraws where there are already permanently hanging draws.

The "unsightly" argument holds no water, as others have pointed out, since the draws are already fixed.

Safety is a huge concern with fixed draws, as UV light decreases webbing strength and worn biners can cut ropes.

And there are real benefits to having permadraws - you don't have to bring your own, and cleaning isn't an issue. These are legitimate benefits that really matter to those who frequent the crag and project things that are their limit.

I had a long conversation about Shagg with Sonnie Trotter at last year's Nor'Easter. Since he's chopped bolts before, I expected he wouldn't be in favor of permadraws. To my surprise he was all for them. He sees permadraws as a natural progression of the Sport-Climbing ethic, which is: climb hard moves and be safe. Placing draws isn't part of the experience of sport climbing (when was the last time anyone distinguished pinkpoint from redpoint?). In 10-20 years, Sonnie predicted, all sport crags with reasonable traffic will have permadraws.

Fixed draws are an inescapable reality at Rumney. Let's make them low-impact and safe.

James Otey wrote: That is an important concern- thanks for bringing it up. It would be interesting to see how the cable at Shagg is fairing. I'm pretty sure this stuff doesn't corrode at all. It's galvanized steel, meaning it's coated. Even if it doesn't last completely forever, it will beat what we have now my a huge margin.

The draws at Shagg are pristine so far. I think the future of permadraws is having a replacement plan, so they are replaced like anchors are replaced (probably less-frequently as they get less wear).

I'd also like to add that if you 1) don't ever climb at Rumney, or 2) don't climb on the harder routes that have fixed draws at Rumney, then your opinion shouldn't carry as much weight as those who are working these routes. For you it's a matter of ethics and eyesore. For us it's a matter of safety.

Also, I know the thread was started with Waimea in mind, but I think Predator should be at the top of the list given the traffic it sees (including a ton of hangdogging) and the tattered condition of the draws.

Jake D. wrote:Jay perhaps this should get locked or removed.. it's pretty sad.

Sounds like somebody's read "1984."

If you guys don't want criticism from the broader climbing community, then stop posting your discussions in a public forum.

It's not like I'm threatening to come up there and bust up your ladder or remove your draws. But I don't agree with the fixed draws and third parties reading this forum should hear both sides.

P.S. The ladder is aid.

Tom Fralich wrote: Sounds like somebody's read "1984." If you guys don't want criticism from the broader climbing community, then stop posting your discussions in a public forum. It's not like I'm threatening to come up there and bust up your ladder or remove your draws. But I don't agree with the fixed draws and third parties reading this forum should hear both sides. P.S. The ladder is aid.

EAST coast forum, clearly labeled as talking about Waimea crag. Input was not asked for.

ladder is not aid as the routes begin at the ledge. it's an extension of the trail. once again you show that you're an ignorant gumby.

go back to your nature hikes and be happy that you're not strong enough to worry your little head about a route with fixed draws on it.

Rajiv Ayyangar wrote:I've been talking with some friends who want to get on Predator but are scared away by the tattered draws and worn biners.

So...remove them and hang your own draws?

Rajiv Ayyangar wrote:The "unsightly" argument holds no water, as others have pointed out, since the draws are already fixed.

Believe it or not, they can actually be removed entirely.

James Otey wrote:This entire issue is being taken care of by a core group of locals who share a reasonable and pragmatic sentiment on the Waimea issue. I posted this thread in an attempt to organize this core group, but it has clearly caught flack from people who aren't readily involved in the outcome of the process. I was wrong in placing this discussion in an open forum. Let me be clear: this was not meant to be a discussion of ethics, but internet anonymity has brought it down to that level. This is not a question of "unsightly draws for lazy climbers." It is a question of safety and longevity.

James you see "safety and longevity" but others see "unsightly draws for lazy climbers". It's all about perspective and you can't write off others opinions just because you disagree. Last time I looked there has been plenty of safe climbing occurring while people hung their own draws. If you say "No perma-draws" you eliminate the risk of worn/dangerous perma-draws!

What I'm seeing here is the attitude that if you climb hard enough you shouldn't have to hang your own draws and you deserve perma-draws. Doesn't that seem just a little elitist to anyone? What's gonna stop Johnny Brojo from hanging draws on everything in Rumney? Per most of the logic in this thread there is nothing stopping him besides the fact that he doesn't climb 5.12. Shit, 5.8 and is hard to some people. Why should they have to hang draws and not you?

Tom Fralich wrote: So...remove them and hang your own draws? Believe it or not, they can actually be removed entirely.

YOU go down clean or top rope Predator.. Hell try to aid the thing. I bet you can't do it.

Jake D. wrote:James it sucks that people who have no context or experience with the routes involved fucked up your thread. Jay perhaps this should get locked or removed.. it's pretty sad. Maybe we'll get a chance to shit on one of their trail work crag day threads since nice clean trails are an eyesore and damage the environment and they are just for convenience instead of bushwacking through the bushes. Tom Etc from out of state go read up on LOCAL ethics. Tom.. butt the fuck out man.

I think you should realize that if you are going to post something on this website, others are going to have something to say about it. If you want only locals involved, this is the wrong place. So don't get mad about something so obvious.

Trail maintenance helps prevent braided trails and erosion, while permadraws do not, so these are not comparable points.

I think permadraws make sense for some routes and not for others, however, a rating should not be the determinant, angle of the rock should.

In the end all I am saying is that you shouldn't get all butt hurt because someone doesn't agree with your viewpoint on permadraws. Like it or not, some people don't want them anywhere and see this as a precedent that they would rather not see set. It is one thing for draws to be left behind that become de facto permadraws, and another for them to become an institution.

I advocate fixed draws for all 5.8s with difficult clipping positions that overhang 50 feet. But there are none at waimea.

Nick Rhoads wrote: James you see "safety and longevity" but others see "unsightly draws for lazy climbers". It's all about perspective and you can't write off others opinions just because you disagree. Last time I looked there has been plenty of safe climbing occurring while people hung their own draws. If you say "No perma-draws" you eliminate the risk of worn/dangerous perma-draws! What I'm seeing here is the attitude that if you climb hard enough you shouldn't have to hang your own draws and you deserve perma-draws. Doesn't that seem just a little elitist to anyone? What's gonna stop Johnny Brojo from hanging draws on everything in Rumney? Per most of the logic in this thread there is nothing stopping him besides the fact that he doesn't climb 5.12. Shit, 5.8 and is hard to some people. Why should they have to hang draws and not you?

"Sport: Leads 5.12a Follows 5.13a" unlikely....

hard .12 tends to be when the route becomes steep enough that it becomes a pain in the ass to downclean the route. It also means that most people are working on the routes and tend to leave project draws up for an extended time.

you can leave your draws on a 5.8 and you can kiss them good bye. Since at that level the route is not steep, it is not hard to clean. It is not projected by most of the community.

but what do you know about rumney.. you're in fucking Wisconsin

Jake D. wrote: "Sport: Leads 5.12a Follows 5.13a" unlikely.... hard .12 tends to be when the route becomes steep enough that it becomes a pain in the ass to downclean the route. It also means that most people are working on the routes and tend to leave project draws up for an extended time. you can leave your draws on a 5.8 and you can kiss them good bye. Since at that level the route is not steep, it is not hard to clean. It is not projected by most of the community. but what do you know about rumney.. you're in fucking Wisconsin

Willow River, WI has steep rock too. And there don't seem to be permadraws
Don't be a jerk and ignorant as well. mountainproject.com/v/willo…

I've climbed 5.11 that had a section of dead horizontal climbing, which is worthy of permadraws, and I've climbed vertical hard 12 not worthy of permadraws.

Again, you should be aware that your actions are noticed by people beyond your local group. In addition, your group, while well intentioned, is small and doesn't seem to represent all viewpoints.

Epic de-evolution. I'm done with this thread. Thank you to everyone who put forth an opinion. It's in the locals hands now... Well, it always has been :)

Coeus wrote: I think you should realize that if you are going to post something on this website, others are going to have something to say about it. If you want only locals involved, this is the wrong place. So don't get mad about something so obvious. Trail maintenance helps prevent braided trails and erosion, while permadraws do not, so these are not comparable points. I think permadraws make sense for some routes and not for others, however, a rating should not be the determinant, angle of the rock should. In the end all I am saying is that you shouldn't get all butt hurt because someone doesn't agree with your viewpoint on permadraws. Like it or not, some people don't want them anywhere and see this as a precedent that they would rather not see set. It is one thing for draws to be left behind that become de facto permadraws, and another for them to become an institution.

This wasn't about if draws were good or bad. it was about organizing the funds to do it.

I don't have a problem with people debating a point. But when you are talking about a single crag then people from WAY FAR AWAY that will most likely never touch the stone on that crag should keep their mouth shut.

If you knew anything about rumney and the draws that stay up then you would know that the angle is what dictates things. I think the RCA made a concession with the forest service about the 5.12 and up thing but there are dozens of 12s that have no draws on them

I may be a jerk but so are the people who derailed an effort to raise funds for crag improvement at a place they have nothing to do with.

James Otey wrote:Epic de-evolution. I'm done with this thread. Thank you to everyone who put forth an opinion. It's in the locals hands now... Well, it always has been :)

You thought something else was going to happen here? mountainproject.com/v/roads…
mountainproject.com/v/the-n…

mountainproject.com/v/perma…
...and there are many more.

Jake D. wrote: This wasn't about if draws were good or bad. it was about organizing the funds to do it. I don't have a problem with people debating a point. But when you are talking about a single crag then people from WAY FAR AWAY that will most likely never touch the stone on that crag should keep their mouth shut. If you knew anything about rumney and the draws that stay up then you would know that the angle is what dictates things. I think the RCA made a concession with the forest service about the 5.12 and up thing but there are dozens of 12s that have no draws on them I may be a jerk but so are the people who derailed an effort to raise funds for crag improvement at a place they have nothing to do with.

Thinking that just because someone does not live in the New England is not affected by this is myopic. Just because you thought the thread wasn't about whether or not permadraws are good or bad does not make it so. Some people want this derailed because they don't see this as crag improvement.

James Otey wrote:I advocate fixed draws for all 5.8s with difficult clipping positions that overhang 50 feet. But there are none at waimea.

Please define "difficult clipping positions". That sounds arbitrary to me.

Jake D., it's called an "airplane" I took one to the east and climbed at Rumney for a few days. BTW, I will change my profile for you, unlike so many others on this site I don't measure my self-worth by hard I climb so changing it to "Leads 5.4 Follows 5.fuck you" won't really be a big deal for me.

Hasn't anyone ever heard of "back-cleaning"? It's this crazy thing where you clean draws on a severally overhanging wall by top-roping.

Seriously, guys in Rumney, install all the perma-draws you want but you will never overcome the lazy argument and don't be surprised when some kid throws chains on a 5.11 and breaks your little rule cause it's gonna happen. If you are going to make an outside gym perma-draw it all so everyone can enjoy the convenience.

Plus, you're a bigger man if you hang the draws on lead ;)

Nick Rhoads wrote: Please define "difficult clipping positions". That sounds arbitrary to me. Jake D., it's called an "airplane" I took one to the east and climbed at Rumney for a few days. BTW, I will change my profile for you, unlike so many others on this site I don't measure my self-worth by hard I climb so changing it to "Leads 5.4 Follows 5.fuck you" won't really be a big deal for me. Hasn't anyone ever heard of "back-cleaning"? It's this crazy thing where you clean draws on a severally overhanging wall by top-roping. Seriously, guys in Rumney, install all the perma-draws you want but you will never overcome the lazy argument and don't be surprised when some kid throws chains on a 5.11 and breaks your little rule cause it's gonna happen. If you are going to make an outside gym perma-draw it all so everyone can enjoy the convenience. Plus, you're a bigger man if you hang the draws on lead ;)

Hahaha keep telling yourself that because no one else gives a shit.

and i'm not measuring your self worth by the grades you claim, i was judging your experience with steep rock. still sounds questionable to me though.

No one will put chain draws on an .11 at rumney. there are at least 3 locals in this thread alone that wouldn't let it stay that way and would probably find out who did it and explain to them why.

You can fly to rumney again.. and climb any route you want. but be prepared to clip cable draws on certain routes because they will be there.