leashless tools

i know there's some debate over leashless vs leashed ice tools. just like to get some ideas about what people have found. i mostly climb steep ice, maybe some multi pitch alpine. Thanks.

Leashless are more convenient, and much much better for any mixed sections, but if you drop one, well, I don't need to say anymore.

Had Rages with leashes (RIP), now have Cobras. Leashless feels natural to me. I used umbilicals on a multi pitch route this past weekend and they didn't take very long to get used to and helped a noob like me not worry about dropping a tool. Lots easier to deal with screws too.

I started ice climbing on leashed Black Prophets, then modified them this year to go leashless, and its much more convenient and natural, especially on lead. I made a tether that I attach to my belay loop for longer routes, and it works great (except when it gets caught under fatty icicles). I vote leashless.

I agree with all the above, except I never dropped a tool when I used leashes, and I don't worry too much about doing so now that I am leashless 95% of the time. Only advantage of leashes I see is added security when putting in a screw on steep ice. When I first started, every screw seemed to take my non-screwing hand to the limit. There were a lot of them that, had I been leashless, I would have fallen off before the screw was in and clipped. My grip has gotten stronger since then, and I'm sure I am better about staying in balance when placing screws. But long vertical sections are when I put the leashes back on, and it provides considerable support, if only psychological.

Gunkiemike wrote: When I first started, every screw seemed to take my non-screwing hand to the limit. There were a lot of them that, had I been leashless, I would have fallen off before the screw was in and clipped. My grip has gotten stronger since then, and I'm sure I am better about staying in balance when placing screws. But long vertical sections are when I put the leashes back on, and it provides considerable support, if only psychological.

My only "argument" to this is that with leashless it's easy to switch hands, shake out and finish placing or removing the screw without killing one arm totally. I think for people who have climbed ice a while, leashes are a little harder to give up. The most experienced guy in our group this past weekend still is using leashes on his vipers (the quick escape kind) while the other two of us who were newer are leashless. For those who are new and never got used to leashes, leashless is darn easy to adapt to.

I've been experimenting more this year going leashless with my Cobras, mainly the easier stuff. It is a nice way to go: so much more manuverability. Still use the quick escape leashes on longer, harder things. Just that older mind-set of having a backup plan if I drop the tools. Certainly is nice not to fool around with leashes though. I may go more that direction with time.

50/50 for me when I first picked up my Nomics I was a little concerned about dropping one and even considered buying a set of leashes for them but after climbing with em for a couple seasons now I realy don't see a need because you tend to be more careful about planting that tool while placing a screw ect.

Try both and decide. I tend to climb leashless on single-pitch stuff, but attach tethers on lead or multipitch where the consequences of a dropped tool are higher.

I have been climbing ice for a long time. So leashes are very secure and natural for me. I use the BD androit on all my tools. I picked up a pair of Cobras this year and have not put leashes on them yet. I end up carrying 2 sets of tools to the climb and if I get on stuff that I am comfortable on I will use the leashless cobras. If it is hard I put on my leashes. there is so much security in having the leash on your tool. I am not worried about dropping a tool. its more the security of the self belay as you move up the ice. I was taught that ice is a no fall sport that you need to trust your tools and learn to know if a placement is good or bad and move off of good placements. That said going leashless doesn't quite make sense to me as using your tools as a moving belay.
In the 70's people didn't use leashes, they used umbilicals (cords attached to their tools and harness) It seems that we are kind of coming full circle. I think the BD Swivel is rated to 4kn. Enough to hold body weight and then some.
So I am trying leashless but still lean heavily toward leashes as a safer way to climb...I am not as young or as strong as I used to be...My being out 4-5 days a week climbing are gone as well. A full time job and a family have a way of changing your perspective. I will settle for 3 dawn patrol mornings and a weekend day and carrying 2 sets of tools to the climb then depending on how I feel that day leashed or leashless.

Good point one thing I failed to mention is I was shown a trick by one of the great ice climbers that helped me when I first started leading

Take a fifi hook and girth hitch the sling through the head of your ice tool than run the slack w the hook down the inside of the shaft tape this in place with the open hook faceing you now when you are ready to place a screw plant that tool well and call for some slack from the belayer hook the rope over the fifi and have your belayer take up the slack and hold you on tension Vola'. Now you have a toprope belay while placing the screw with no worries about pumping out . Infact I have hung out n enjoyed the view and as long as you don't lean way back no worries ever I've even had both feet blow and was held by that one tool.Just make sure you tape the hook to the shaft very
well I will run several wraps of e tape around the hook at the opening to keep it from swinging anchoring it securly to the shaft .

There are no worries as the sling takes all the weight the tape just keeps things neat n tidy

This works for both leashed and leashless and I find it much more user friendly than the old cliffhanger through the bottom hole in the spike thing

Evan Simons wrote:Leashless are more convenient, and much much better for any mixed sections, but if you drop one, well, I don't need to say anymore.

http://www.mountaingear.com/pages/product/product.asp/imanf/Black+Diamond/idesc/Spinner+Leash/Store/MG/item/217489/N/0

All BD tools these days have clippable spikes that are good to well over 1500 lbs. This was by design to give security options to the leashless climber by simply changing the order of how you do things. If you are setting up to place a screw you'll usually have a solid tool placement. Instead of going for the screw first go for the quickdraw first and clip it to the spike of the good tool. Clip the rope to the bottom end of the draw. Now you've got the weight of the rope off you and some security to relax your mind to do a good job placing the screw (you can even take some tension if you're pumping out). Place the screw, nice and solid, and then transfer the quickdraw with the rope already in it to the screw hanger (it's easy because the screw is almost always lower than the spike of the tool). This is a pretty clean way of doing things without any extra stuff, extra clutter or extra time. You can also only do it when you feel the need and not have to reinvent your system. It's just another gear to shift in to.

Be safe out there,

Bill

went with bd fusions, and really stoked on the leashless. i'll definately try the quickdraw trick if i get on lead this year.