Bad Rope Burn Belaying with Gri-Gri

so i guess my questions are,

who's gri-gri was it (ie, did tim demand that you use his grigri to belay you, or did you just get one recently and were trying it out for the first time)?

what was your brake hand doing?

i know several people who have had accidents with the grigri not locking up, and in each case it would have been preventable if the user had treated it like a real belay device and not a miracle-of-science.

i'm going to have to side with tim on this one, although he did blow the first piece off the belay. phil, if you are climbing in the fischers, then you need to have your shit together and be more prepared. lapses in paying attention, ie squirming around in your belay seat, are no excuse for dropping somebody that far. you both got off pretty lucky. really lucky actually. don't mean to bash on you, but rather give you a good scolding. hope your hand comes back together pretty quickly.

If you fully inhibit the cam, you won't be able to catch a leader fall by having a good brake grip as you would a regular tube device. So where the brake hand was, or should have been, the same result would have happened but to both hands.

I've taken a liking to the Trango Cinch for that reason. I don't think you could accidentally keep the cam from locking off since you push it open to feed instead of holding it shut. In the gym a couple of weeks ago I looked down as I fed the last arm load of rope to my partner for him to clip the anchor at the top of an overhanging route and he fell without warning. Even though I was holding the cam open with my brake hand thumb as I paid out slack, the thing slammed shut and launched me.

On the other hand, I have been dropped by a Gri-Gri in a belay mistake nearly identical to the one described in the OP. (Albeit a much shorter fall.)

Greg,
I'm glad you caught the fall but eventually you're going to drop your climber belaying with a Cinch that way. There is no need to hold the cam open to feed rope. Check out the video instructions we posted up last year. It may take a few minutes of practice to get the hang of it but it's really the only way to feed slack that can't be defeated.

trango.com/videos.php

Climb safe,
mal

Mal,
I've seen that and given that method a try, but my thumb isn't sticky/sweaty enough to keep the cam open by simply pinching at the fulcrum. I keep three fingers on the rope with the device basically balanced on my index finger like I'm holding a wine glass, and I use my thumb to nudge the edge of the plastic lever to feed slack.
I've also cultivated a habit of keeping the device locked off while I'm not actively feeding slack by putting a small amount of tension between the device and a two finger-grip of my feeling hand - works for the sake of avoiding cross-loading as well.
It is your design, though. Do you think that nudging the bar instead is equivalent to clamping a Gri-Gri shut with an entire palm? It seems to me that the slightest tug on the rope makes the thumb pop off the bar...

Just last weekend I was out doing some aid practice. I just bought a Gri-Gri and my partner wanted to try it out. Near the top of the route a hook popped and I went sailing 20' down the wall even though my last piece just before the hook held. I'd call this belayer error, but due to the complexity of the device. He was holding the brake open to feed me rope and when I fell, squoze harder.

When I started learning to climb I was lowering somebody with a Gri-Gri and they went sailing down. Finally I let go and we both ended up 10 feet off the ground.

The device seems slick but in my limited experience with it, it takes a lot of respect to use properly. I have no idea why people buy these for their girlfriends thinking it will keep them safer when their girlfriends are belaying on one of these. My wife has belayed me on an ATC for years no problem. I wanted her to try out the Gri-Gri and she refused.

I too, have been dropped with a gri-gri. The bottom line is find a device that works well for you and learn it and use it right. Don't be lazy or take an auto-locker for granted. Phil, I'm sorry your hand got jacked up, Hope it heals up right!

Both of the devices ( grigri and CInch) are auto lock assists. this does not mean have a smoke and a brew while belay8ing. So keep you head and eyes up and one hand on the rope.
Also note. how you hold each device shows a lot as how it handles in a fall.

curious what size rope it was? new? 10-11mm is the rope size allowed in the manual. most ropes used now are smaller.
i would like to see petzel change the rope diameter specs. smaller hole perhaps.
the brake hand side of the rope MUST be held onto. aid climbing i often tie a back-up knot in the brake-hand side. easy to deal with when the going is slow.
i prefer to be belayed on a gri-gri, but not when the belayer holds the device closed with no hand on the brake, a common move by some good climbers.
glad no major injuries were sustained.

A climber in JT last weekend died when he fell and hit his belayer then continued to fall 100 feet to his death... I am not sure of the rest of the details... Or what might have been done to prevent it...

But... When a lead climber collides with their belayer and the belayer is injured or disabled then a ground fall is very possible... In that case a grigri or auto locker might save the lead climbers life... With a tube belay device the best you could hope for is hitting the end of the rope before you hit the ground...

It has been mentioned above that a grigri should be used like a tube, guide hand on top and a brake hand below, done this way there would be no problem.

Every grigri accident has been user induced and something seldom mentioned are the number of injuries and deaths related to other belay devices far out number grigri falls...

Greg German wrote:Mal, I've seen that and given that method a try, but my thumb isn't sticky/sweaty enough to keep the cam open by simply pinching at the fulcrum. I keep three fingers on the rope with the device basically balanced on my index finger like I'm holding a wine glass, and I use my thumb to nudge the edge of the plastic lever to feed slack. I've also cultivated a habit of keeping the device locked off while I'm not actively feeding slack by putting a small amount of tension between the device and a two finger-grip of my feeling hand - works for the sake of avoiding cross-loading as well. It is your design, though. Do you think that nudging the bar instead is equivalent to clamping a Gri-Gri shut with an entire palm? It seems to me that the slightest tug on the rope makes the thumb pop off the bar...

There is no need need to keep the cam open by pinching at the fulcrum. It is all about the motion you use when you feed out the rope. Unlike a gri, you do not make a motion of "handing your belayer a armful of rope." This upwards motion will cause the cinch to lock up.

Instead, make a motion of "stabbing yourself in the gut" while holding the fulcrum with your brake hand. Basically, if you keep your hand low and pull horizontally to the ground, the cinch pays out rope very fast. As soon as there is an upward tug, it locks up.

Evan

Evan1984 wrote: ...make a motion of "stabbing yourself in the gut" while holding the fulcrum with your brake hand.

I'll give that a try. My bad for not investigating it further.
I was belaying last night and I noticed that my mutant-sized hands are so large relative to the device that my thumb nudges the bar whether I like it or not.

Wow. This story hits close to home. I was climbing Swoop Gimp or Be Dust in Zion in 1997 and had the EXACT same thing happen to me. The only difference is that I was about 30 feet off the belay with maybe 5 or 6 pieces in between us. I was the climber and I took a head first 100 footer catching nothing but air. My partner burnt through a glove and then injured his hand pretty severely. The irony of it was that I took the fall, but it was him that got hurt. My memory is fuzzy, but I think I actually had to lower him because he couldn't grasp anything. At the time I worked at a big climbing gear company (partner, too, same company)and people saw his hand and the story got around pretty fast.

So many things are similar. I brought the gri-gri and encouraged my partner to use it. He had 20 years of experience, but not much with a gri-gri. He was putting on a sweater at the time of the fall, but regardless, what kept the gri-gri from autolocking was that he had it positioned underneath his daiseys, so when the rope snapped tight the cam was pinned down by the taunt daisey chain securing him to the anchor.

For a few weeks I was pretty confused about how I should feel about the accident. I didn't blame my partner, still don't either, but I'm not a person that needs to find someone to blame for a f-up. What finally resolved it for me though was a conversation with a co-worker. A guy I worked with that I'll leave unnamed, but who has climbed hard walls for 40 years and is very well-known had heard the story. He approached me and asked me to verify a few facts and then he asked me if I wanted his opinion -- left it completely up to me, he wasn't going to say anything if I didn't ask. I thought about it and said, yeah man, what do you think? His answer was just two words: belayer error. The way he said it without hesitation or elaboration really crystalized it or me.

You are personally responsible for securely belaying your partner. If you use an unfamiliar piece of equipment, know what you're doing, or just use what you know. Normally, my partner would have used an ATC with a backup knot. Had that been the case my fall would have been ten feet, not a hundred. If there had been a ledge to hit, I'd have broken my neck and now be dead from a stupid mistake.

This accident made me anti-auto lock for a while, but I've come back around and now enjoy using an auto-lock device. I think it makes me a safer partner to climb with...but I still use it with respect just like any other non-auto-lock belay device.

Anyway, I hope you guys still end up being buddies. I don't think either one of you is taking shots at the other -- sounds like you're still processing the event. Mistakes happen. Have a conversation next time about the belay setup. Also, it really bothers me to hear that you didn't have the other end of the rope secured to the belay or at least a knot in it. #1 rule, secure the ends of your rope. Think about that guy in the other post up at Clear Creek. It's such an easy thing to do and still people don't do it.

My buddy and I went back 2 months later and did the route. It was good to finish it together. Hope you two do the same.

Cheers!

just an fyi: anyone jugging lines should be tied into the end of the line they are jugging, and periodically tie back up knots as you move upward...

Greg German wrote: I'll give that a try. My bad for not investigating it further. I was belaying last night and I noticed that my mutant-sized hands are so large relative to the device that my thumb nudges the bar whether I like it or not.

One thing that might help that is rigging the cinch to a dogbone with 2 locking carabiners. It keeps the device a little farther away from the harness and a little easier to manage with big hands.

Anyway, I just put the facial hair to the face and think I see you at RNJ all the time. I'm the other tall skinny dude in the gym.

But, now, we're hijacking the thread.

Evan

Trevor wrote:just an fyi: anyone jugging lines should be tied into the end of the line they are jugging, and periodically tie back up knots as you move upward...

I jumar thousands of feet of fixed ropes on an almost daily basis and couldn't really afford the time and effort your suggestion would require. I'm just always extra careful that my gear is in good shape and that I'm properly daisied in.

Interesting that there were two nearly identical accidents. It just shows that if it can happen, it will happen..... and more than once too!

Another take home message from this thread for me is for the belayer to tie a backup knot if they need to futz around at the belay.. i.e putting on a sweater, adjusting the belay seat, smoking a bowl, or whatever.

With an ATC, I've always made a point of holding the break hand as I futz around with a task at the belay, but I could imagine the temptation with a grigri to just let go for a second. A simple backup knot seems prudent in these instances.

As someone transitioning into aid climbing, another thought is that free climbing falls often (but not always of course) have prior warning... i.e. elvis legs, "watch me", crying for mommy, tears, etc.... so the belayer is less likely to be distracted at the moment of fall. Aid climbing falls, especially in sandstone, are probably more likely to happen without warning to the belayer...i.e. 45 minutes into the pitch.. bam a piece pops! Obviously an unexpected fall can happen free climbing as well, but far less often than aid climbing I suspect.

Regardless.... tie a quick backup knot before you commence futzing at the belay.

Ed Wright wrote: I jumar thousands of feet of fixed ropes on an almost daily basis and couldn't really afford the time and effort your suggestion would require. I'm just always extra careful that my gear is in good shape and that I'm properly daisied in.

Thousands of feet of rope on an almost daily basis? That must be magic eh?

My left hand still mildly resembles raw hamburger is a few places, but is definitely getting better, those special blister bandaid's and some good ointment helps tremendously. Very good point Andy regarding aid falls, in my [limited] aid experience, i've noticed that especially on harder routes in sandstone, gear is likely to fail suddenly and without warning; Tim had both feet in the aiders on the alien when it very suddenly ripped out of a crappy pin scar, still no excuse for me futzing around in the belay seat, but I think it caught us both off guard. I think the extremely sudden nature of the fall and that it was 3 feet above a hanging belay contributed to the belayer error on my part; def. should have had a better backup/knot in the rope though until he got few solid pieces in. And I correct my earlier statement, the end of the line was knotted. The rope was a 10 mm. line I believe. The grigri was my partners and it was his suggestion to use it, I neglected really making sure I remembered how to use it though after not having used one in a about a year.

Oh and great story Fremont; that is definitely eerily similar in many ways. Cool to here you got back on the route and sent it. The Finger of Fate is both terrifying [awful choss, nasty pin scars, long approach] and amazing. Would love to go finish it some day.

Cheers,
Phil.

Hank Caylor wrote: Thousands of feet of rope on an almost daily basis? That must be magic eh?

Well, I guess I'm exagerating a bit but I do have 2 new routes in the works right now--one is ten pitches and still going and the other is 4 pitches and almost finished--so I am doing a lot of jumaring just to get to work each day.