The Overhand Knot?

Will A. wrote: a replacement for the double fishemans for tying two ropes to rap off of. What do you guys think about this?

Why would you want to replace this tried and true knot? For the purpose of tying two ropes together I would use nothing other.

Adam Stackhouse wrote: Why would you want to replace this tried and true knot? For the purpose of tying two ropes together I would use nothing other.

The double fisherman has two strong suits: It reduces the strength of the rope less than most other knots, and it doesn't tend to roll under load. On the other hand, it is one of the knots with the highest proclivity to snag.

I was at the New River Rendezvous a couple of years back and took a self-rescue course. I seem to recall the instructor recommending using the EDK for a cordalette. I never did try it. I have used the EDK for a prussick cord used to back up a rappel below the device (can't remember what this is called). I have not had any problems.

The overhand knot with a single overhand backup in one strand negates the possibility of rolling(under any loads seen in climbing), and pulls easily. The only time I would consider using another knot is when rappelling with a 10mm lead and 5mm tag, and then I want something bigger that will block against the anchor and not suck the knot into it.

The double overhand is the knot of choice for cordalettes as well as they easily come untied if you need extra length and are as strong or stronger than the triple fishermans. In the 2 minutes it takes you to untie your fisherman I could have already escaped the belay.

The only time I ever use a fishermans is when tying a fixed anchor or using titan cord.

Here here, any more discussion on this and those in doubt well seem too worried to be outside of the gym......

I use the flat overhand to tie two rappel ropes together, backed up by another to remove the possibility of the knot rolling. It is called the Euro Death Knot because Euros like(d) to tie it with really short tails, whereupon it roll and the unlucky Euro would...die.

I also use two overhands to tie my cords into a loop because it is easy to untie. A double fisherman's cinches down hard when weighted (eg. falling second). If I were to need my cord for rescue purposes, or to thread a pinch for a belay, it is very easy to untie the knot and retie it with strength. As long as you leave enough tail to tie a second overhand over the first, you are fine.

Ian Wolfe wrote:It is called the Euro Death Knot because Euros like(d) to tie it with really short tails, whereupon it roll and the unlucky Euro would...die.

Have you seen any data in support of this conjecture? I've always attributed this nickname to the natural mistrust in the unfamiliar, but I may be wrong.

Two thoughts on this topic:

- Kevin, for joining a lead and tag line for rappel, look at the double sheet bend. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doubl…
(or even triple for 10 and 5 as you suggest). I'd leave much longer tails than shown in the picture for sure. This knot is specifically designed for joining knots with different diameters.

- I keep hearing folks say the EDK is best because of its low profile. But, really, is it THAT much smaller than alternatives?? The times I've jammed ropes its not the knot, its a loop in the falling tail that wedges in a crack or loops on a flake. Just my experience ...

brenta, no data, sorry. That's just the story of the name as it was passed down to me :-)

One of the main advantages of the EDK is not its low profile, but the way it "stands up" away from the rock when being pulled. Tie one and you will see what I mean. What this translates to is better pull over edges where a bulkier knot that encompasses the rope might get stuck. This is also true for cracks where another knot might wedge, the EDK will stand up around the snagging bit and pull through. It is however, not going to help you in those rope eating situations in which any knot, or just a bight, gets stuck in a constricting crack.

So mostly what I'm saying is that it makes pulling much easier and avoids problems where you might have to reset the ropes by climbing them (ugh! specifically the knot getting caught on the lip of a belay ledge) but it is not a catch-all no-rope-stucker device.

Adding a backup knot to the EDK takes away its main advantage; it slides and pulls easier as mentioned above by Ian Wolfe. Add an unnecessary backup knot and it will stick as bad or worse than any other knot. The reason we all went to the EDK was simple: climbers were getting hurt and killed way more often from stuck ropes or from trying to free a stuck knot than they were from a knot coming untied. Just peruse old copies of the ANAM you you'll see. I don't think I've ever see a report of a knot failure but there are plenty of examples of epics arising from stuck ropes.

Tie your EDK with foot-long tails and there is no need, whatsoever, to tie a backup knot. Don't succumb to the temptation to tie your EDK with a figure-8. These knots will roll (capsize if you're a sailor) and can fail. The overhand EDK does not.

Climb safe,
Mal

Does the EDK work with different diameter ropes? What about dynamic+static combo?

Good post, Malcolm.

It is highly unlikely that an overhand knot, with long tails, has any chance of coming undone while in a static position and under load, which would be the scenario of a rappelling climber. Even if it were to roll out while pulling the rope, there would be no consequence, because you would have already rappelled and anchored into the next rappel station or reached the ground.

The safety advantage of not getting a rope stuck far outweighs the improbable possibility that the knot would roll out while under load. I cut a rope once, while pulling it after a rappel. Fortunately, We were on the ground, so all I lost was the rope. Things could have been much worse if we had been ten pitches up.

Agree with Malcolm and Ken -- the overhand bend (aka flat overhand) knot is best choice on two-rope rappels and no need for backup knot(s) if you have 12"-18" tails. I individually cinch each of the four strands really tight and I have total confidence in the resulting knot.

Another thing I like to do, if there is enough rope, is to have the last person down on a rappel clear the knot past any potential trouble spots. I have sometimes moved the knot more than 30' down from the anchor as I was rapping down to have it clear an edge, groove, etc. that could possibly cause a problem. Of course, you can only do this if you have enough extra rope. But it's something to consider when you have a two-rope rappel with a problematic pull.

Also, before you even tie the knot and set up the rappel, decide which side of the anchor the knot should be on to get the best pull and rope fall. On Crimson Chrysalis in Red Rock, for example, I always put the knot on the right side of the anchor, since I wanted the rope to pull and fall to the right, away from the cracks and chimneys to the left.

Spend a little time planning the rappel and the pull, and use a knot less likely to snag, and you'll minimize the chance of the knot getting stuck or the rope falling into a bad place when you pull it.

Andy Laakmann wrote:Does the EDK work with different diameter ropes? What about dynamic+static combo?

Yes & Yes - I'm using the 8mm static which is commonly available - put the knot so the mainline takes the load. Some use 7mm which I haven't gotten around to ordering yet.

I think there is some point in differentiating a backup knot with a simple overhand on a single strand snugging up the flat overhand of the two strands. This doesn't really affect the profile enough to make a hindrance.

Malcolm Daly wrote:Adding a backup knot to the EDK takes away its main advantage; it slides and pulls easier as mentioned above by Ian Wolfe. Add an unnecessary backup knotbmand it will stick as bad or worse than any other knot.

In my experience, this is not true. What matters most is where the knot sits relative to the two strands. All knots that are on one side only perform significantly better than those that stick out on all sides like the fisherman knot. If a double fisherman bumps into a protrusion, even a very small force applied to the other end of the rope may prevent one from pulling the knot across the hurdle. This is much less likely to be the case with an overhand plus backup.

Of course, a larger knot may get stuck in a constriction where a smaller knot may slide freely. But if one were to survey the knots commonly used to join rappel ropes, one would find that the overhand with backup is far from being the bulkiest.

There are several ways to make the overhand less prone to rolling. I use this one, which is not an overhand plus backup, but is based on the same principle:



It works almost as well as a simple overhand when one has to pull the ropes; it is safe even with a dynamic 10 mm rope tied to a 5.5 kevlar cord, and my climbing partners are less likely to object to it than to a simple overhand. I've never experimented with the double fisherman tied sideways, but I wouldn't be surprised if it also performed reasonably well when pulling the ropes.

We tested this knot at Misty Mountains testing facility and it did not roll. The rope broke at the knot every time.

I thought that this knot was called the Patagonia knot, do you have any insight to this Malcolm? I think EDK is a VERY common misnomer???

Ian and Malcolm are way right on and I will second the idea of using it for tying cordelettes together. If you are doing a self rescue or a bizarre belay it is great to be able to untie your cordelette and use it in less traditional ways. Have you ever tried to untie a wieghted triple fishermans on skinny tech cord and how about trying to do that in the cold. By the time you get it untied SAR might have already arrived. I'm sure the manufactures doesn't recommend using the EDK but its great and in this instance you can use the tails to tie a back up.

Personally I never climb with the same diameter ropes, usually a 9.4 and a 8 or 5 mm tag. To not have a small overhand backup in the trail line snugged to the overhand would in my mind be foolish as it more than doubles the strength of the knot as far as force required to roll. In no way does this compromise the effectiveness of the EDK, and personally I feel it makes the knot more effective as you do not need as long of tail.

Jeff, that Sheet bend looks interesting but I prefer a blocking knot when tying a 9mm to a 5mm rope. It is an overhand with an extra twist, basically a double fisherman with both ends on the same side. (edit: looks like the picture above).It has a larger diameter so is less likely to pull into the anchor and get stuck. Also if you use an autoblock and are careful you do not need to always have the knot on the 5mm side. I am sure that this will raise a ruckus with the safety crowd but try it first, it works.

Kevin,
Post up your data on that knot that doubles the force required to roll. I'd love to see it. We've never, ever gotten an overhand to roll to failure. How are you testing? BTW, I like the looks of that knot. It adds another pass to the knot without adding all the bulk of an additional overhand safety. If you can really show that an EDK will roll to failure when subjected a load that you actually might find when you're rapelling, then this might be a better knot. I'd be tempted to call it a barrel knot. What do you call it?

EDK is a disparaging term for this very useful knot but it seems to be the common name. Anyone have another name for this knot?

I haven't seen any test data on the EDK with different diameters of rope. I know that when I'm rapping with a 10mm and a 7mm the EDK seems to be way sketchy but that's just the pucker muscle talking to me. I've given up using 7mm tag lines. they get caught and snagged more often than they don't. I only really like them when they're in my pack. Give me an 8.4mm half rope any day. An EDK with an 8.4 and a 10mm doesn't fire that sphincter muscle.

Mal

Mal,

A barrel knot looks quite different to me. The knot in the pictures above is known in Italy as "double guides' knot" or "double floating knot." The flat overhand is indeed known as "guides' knot" or "floating knot" in climbing circles. The appellation of "floating" refers specifically to its ability to stand up when ropes are pulled over some roughness in the terrain.

The simple and double floating knots are recommended for joining ropes by the National Technical Committee of the Italian guides' association.

Tests of these and other knots were performed at the University of Padova around 2003. Some of these tests were conducted by members of the Central Committee for Gear and Technique of the Italian Alpine Club. The knots tested were: one floating knot, two floating knots in series, the double floating knot, the double fisherman, and the water knot.

I don't have the specifics of the tests: I could only find this on the web. (See the last post on that page.) Therefore the following has to be taken with a grain of salt. The double floating knot was very close to the double fisherman in strength, worked well for nylon, kevlar, and dyneema, and did well both in dynamic tests (on the Dodero machine) and in slow pull tests.

All the knots tested gave ample safety margin for rappelling, with no failure below 8 kN. The single floating knot was indeed the weakest of the lot, and I'd rather not use it for tying a cordelette as some have suggested.

On the other hand, a properly dressed and tightened floating knot should be safe in most rappelling situations. The one accident report I've read involving its coming undone leaves too many questions unanswered to allow any firm conclusion. The single floating knot is the fastest and easiest to tie, the smallest, the easiest to inspect. All these are important virtues. When in doubt, I'll add an extra pass to it and relax.