Black DIamond gear (protection) made in china??????

In a previous post, the BD CEO posted a detailed response to concerns about BD moving to China.
My personal deconstruction: the BD CEO’s response appears in quotes, lowercase. MY RESPONSE IS ALL CAPS.
Disclaimer: This reply is being written on my Chinese made (but designed in California!) Mac computer with a neat software program included in all Macs, iRONY v.1.0

”Thanks for your thoughtfully composed questions. In addition, I have
just read the thread on Mountain Project and I am expanding upon your
questions so as to set the record straight for all those there. Everyone
is entitled to their own opinion, however it helps when they have the
facts vs. rumors to develop those opinions.”
“As a growing global brand, when we evaluate our production we
must be unbiased as to the best overall course of action in terms of quality, cost and location. Our aim is to constantly improve our systems and compromise nothing.”

EXCEPT FUTURE US JOB GROWTH AND THE NURTURING AND RETENTION OF A LIVING US KNOWLEDGE BASE AND THE SKILL SETS CAPABLE OF BUILDING HIGH QUALITY GEAR.

“First off, it is important to understand that our manufacturing of
goods, specifically pro, is being done in OUR factory in China. This is
not an outsourced vendor operation. This is a Black Diamond built,
owned, and managed facility that is operated and staffed by Black
Diamond employees.

The BD team that got the operation going and is managing it has and/or
does include the former head of engineering and manufacturing of BD SLC,
the second in command of our QA department, our senior special project
guy, one of our lead process engineers and a host of other BD employees
(including myself) who have shuttled back and forth between BD Asia and
BD North America. For that matter, we have had BD Europe employees there
helping out as well.”

HOW MANY 1ST CLASS AIR FLIGHTS BY THE BD CEO DID THIS TAKE, ALONG WITH ALL THE OTHER EXPENSES AND TIME SPENT FLYING TO CHINA? FYI: CURRENT 1ST CLASS, SLC TO BEIJING IS APPROX $8500 TO $15,000. ALL THIS SHUTTLING MUST HAVE COST BD IN THE LOW- MID SIX FIGURES ON AIR ALONE.

“Conversely, we have had a steady flow of BD Asia employees coming here to SLC to train.”

TYPICAL CHINESE BUSINESS THEFT TECHNIQUE, THEY GET YOU TO DIG YOUR OWN GRAVE BY YOU PAYING THEM TO STEAL FROM YOU.

”Secondly, please understand that the testing equipment, testing
standards, and training have all come from BD USA and are managed by BD
SLC people at this time.”

HOW ABOUT NEXT YEAR?

“Thirdly, understand that the supply chain of components and parts is the
same as it has been. The cams going onto the Camalots are made from
USA-produced 7000 series aluminum, that are machined on our CNCs overseen
by our engineers; the anodizing is done by Easton Aluminum here in SLC
and then they are shipped to our Asian facility. Cable, springs, and
other parts still come from here or from the same suppliers that we were
using when we were assembling them here. The supply chain is not
changed.”

IF ALL THE PARTS COME FROM THE US, WHY BOTHER SHIPPING THEM TO CHINA TO PUT THEM TOGETHER AND THEN SHIP THEM RIGHT BACK TO THE US?
BD CHINA MUST PAY REALLY LOW WAGES TO MAKE THIS WORTHWHILE. ALL THIS SHIPPING = OIL FOR PLANES, SHIPS AND TRUCKS. NOT EXACTLY THE HALLMARKS OF A GREEN ENTERPRISE, AS WE ARE BEING LED TO BELIEVE. ESPECIALLY WHEN OUR TROOPS ARE DYING ON AN ALMOST DAILY BASIS IN THE OIL WAR IN IRAQ.
IS EASTON ALUMINUM PLANNING TO START MAKING ALUMINUM SPECIALTY PRODUCTS IN CHINA, TOO?

“The Asian employees at BD's operation are well trained, dedicated, adult
professionals who work in a new, very modern facility that is the envy
of people in SLC.”

THE DEATH KNELL FOR BD IN SLC. INNOVATION FOLLOWS MONEY.
BD’S CEO IS ADMITTING THAT THE SLC FACILITY DAY’S ARE NUMBERED.

“All of them who have worked for us get out climbing on
company trips and we have built a very large, climbing wall at the
facility that allows employees to climb at lunch and after work. Our
training and their dedication is nothing less than inspiring.”

HOW NICE. WE SUBSIDIZE THEIR CLIMBING TRIPS, AS LONG AS AMERICAN CLIMBERS KEEP FORKING OUT THE BD PREMIUM, FOR GEAR THAT WILL NO LONGER BE MADE HERE. WHAT A DEAL.

”As you know, when you order an iPod or a PowerBook directly from Apple
it comes directly from their facility in China.”

BD SEEMS PROUD TO BE FOLLOWING THE US TECH COMPANIES LEAD IN THROWING OVER AMERICAN WORKERS TO MAXIMIZE PROFIT AT ALL COSTS. MACS ETC, WOULD NOT BE MADE IN CHINA IF THEY HAD NOT BEEN INVENTED AND MADE HERE FIRST. IS BD HIRING H-1B WORKERS YET TO FILL THE JOBS THAT WE AMERICANS ARE APPARENTLY NOT CAPABLE OF DOING?

“If you are living in Asia and purchase an Audi A4 or A6 it is being made in China and some of the Euro luxury manufacturers are preparing to export their first
Chinese-made cars.”

BD CEO SEEMS TO BE SAYING THAT SINCE EVERYONE ELSE IS CORRUPT, GREEDY AND WOULD KILL THEIR MOTHERS TO GET AHEAD, I WILL TOO.

“they take great pride in their
work; and are capable of great things. “

ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU HAND THEM THE KEYS TO THE FACTORY AND PAY THEM TO LEARN YOUR JOB

“The question simply comes down to
management and ownership and the vision and commitment of those in
charge.”

TRUER WORDS WERE NEVER SPOKEN. TO PARAPHRASE HEIDI KLUM: “YOU (AMERICANS) ARE OUT!”

“BD Asia shares BD's ethos, commitment to high quality, and they share
our passion for the life-defining activity of climbing. It is truly the
world's universal Esperanto a language we all not only speak but feel.
BD is a very global brand just like climbing and skiing are global
endeavors. For that matter, some of our fastest sales growth has been in
China and Asia as a middle class emerges and has time to explore the
beauty and challenge of Asia's crags and mountains.”

WILL CHINAS MIDDLE CLASS BE PAYING THE SAME $60 TO $110 A CAM THAT US CLIMBERS PAY? OR WILL THE PRICE OF BD CAMS DROP ACROSS THE BOARD, SAY 30-40%?

“The market place
feels much like the U.S. felt like in the very late 60s and early 70s.”

BD CEO INVOKING FEEL-GOOD MEMORIES OF YVON CHOUINARD INVENTING AND MAKING CLIMBING GEAR IN VENTURA, CA.

“BD is committed to being global and to being an intimate and
contributing member of each climbing/ski community that we are a part
of. That is true in Europe as well.

So, this is not about shutting down BD SLC as a manufacturing facility.”

COME SEE THE NEW BD THEME PARK, AND WATCH OLD CLIMBING HIPPIES FORGE PITONS ON A REAL ANVIL WHILE 747’S STREAM INTO THE AIRPORT WITH THE ACTUAL GEAR.

“to the contrary we have expanded our SLC facility this past year by 50
employees and we are fully maxed out, even with two full shifts.”

HOW MUCH DID THE NEW FACTORY IN CHINA COST?:

“…Over the past year we have been assembling a large percentage of our ice
tools at BD China. Technical tools are done at both facilities currently
though they may shift fully to BD Asia… In addition, we are assembling
ATCs there and plan to slowly shift C3s there over time as well as some
other products.”

TRANSLATION: BD’S US MANUFACTURING IS DEAD MEAT.

“Many products will remain here while some will be done
at both facilities in future years. It is a work-in-process. It's
"generally" labor intensive assembly that is done at BD China.”

TYPING PRESS RELEASES HOWEVER, WILL STILL BE DONE IN SLC BY AMERICAN INTERNS.

“ Quality
assurance is performed both in Salt Lake City and Asia by BD employees.
Regardless, it's still BD, and still being made by BD.

..As stated~WBD is proud to have created our own ISO-certified, owned
staffed, managed and trained operation in Asia. “

FOR HOW LONG?

”Our customers are the
big beneficiaries here.”

THE UNIVERSAL CORPORATE LIE: WAL MART SPEWS THIS OUT IN THEIR TV ADS WHEN THEY TELL EVERYONE HOW MUCH MONEY THEY’VE SAVED BY SHOPPING THERE, EVEN AS THEY DESTROY US COMMUNITIES MANUFACTURING CAPABILITY BY OUT-SOURCING EVERYTHING AND PAYING WAGES THAT ONLY ALLOW ONE TO AFFORD MADE IN CHINA CRAP.

“Thanks for the opportunity to state the facts…”

SPIN THE FACTS.

THE EMPLOYEE OWNERS OF BLACK DIAMOND EQUIPMENT

Peter Metcalf

CEO/Co-Founder

Well said East Village. I can find American made cams somewhere and support none sell out companies with my hard earned money. It reminds me of Osprey packs, cool company I wanted to back and I bought several packs from them all hand made in Dolores, Colorado. As soon as they sold out to China it was time to find a new company.

Not good, not good at all. I've had the misfortune of being laid off twice because of outsourcing to countries such as India, China, and Mexico. Yes, I work in the tech industry, which means whenever I call ORACLE support I speak with someone in India over a crackling connection.

Whatever your political views are, whatever your thoughts are of outsourcing to foreign countries consist of, remember this: IT IS HAPPENING AND WILL CONTINUE TO HAPPEN AND THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT IT EXCEPT STOP SUPPORTING COMPANIES WHO MANUFACTURE PRODUCTS OVERSEAS. PERIOD.

It is truly sad that Black Diamond is doing this.

Shane Zentner wrote:Not good, not good at all. I've had the misfortune of being laid off twice because of outsourcing to countries such as India, China, and Mexico.

If you had taken the time to read BD's response you would have noted that they in fact are not outsourcing. They own and operate their factory in china. Very big difference. Considering that BD's SLC factory is operating at full capacity I highly doubt there was any layoffs leading up to this move (this move has all the harbingers of an expansion). Please take the time to read and understand the argument at hand before hosing a good company just b/c they decided to build a factory in another country. There a shitty companies operating in every country of the world (including this one)and there are also good companies. Just b/c a company goes to a country that is hitting it's industrial peak at a time when that country's populous is massive and hungry to work outside of the farm doesn't make them any more anti-american than you and I. I embrace developing nations, hopefully one of them can do it right.

From an economic standpoint:
pulling out of a global marketplace would have dire consequences on our economy. Wall Street would plummet, China would sell off the billions of dollars of american bonds they bought sending our economy into more of a tailspin, anti-american sentiment in developing nations would escalate (because we essentially suicide bombed their economy). Think about what you are saying. Foreign trade has existed here from day one when this country still belonged to the native americans and it will continue to exist. Trade sanctions are placed against countries we do not support for a reason and not placed in other countries for a reason. A flourishing relationship with China is good for us and good for the world (Considering that they make up more of the world than we do).

TO ALL YOU FOLKS THAT HAVE DECIDED TO SIDE AGAINST BD:

I am going to the creek in a couple of weeks and I will take all your camalots off your hands (you don't want that commie red shit on your rack, you're fuckin' americans dammit!). So just pm me and we'll figure out a time and a place where I can take those awful pieces off your hands. Don't worry I will dispose of them responsibly.

Yeah, and leave your Aliens, too!

Daniel C and Jed P are making the most sense here, IMHO.

For a recent plain-english explanation of the pressures on labor, try:
imf.org/external/pubs/ft/we…
(skip to page 180 for the 1 page summary)(I know its radical to bring some facts and analysis into a forum discussion, but what the heck.)

Technology, global trade, and immigration are (in that order) putting pressure on developed countries' workers. So, one option is we can get scared and ban robots in factories, block imports (which means we'll lose the ability to export too), and close the borders.

Or, second option, we can sack up and figure out how as a nation to stay trained, educated, innovative, and kick ass in the most profitable and high-growth parts of the global economy. AND, we don't have to be jerks to US workers like a lot of "your on your own" hard core free market folks. So I support govt funded training, education, R&D, unemployment/relocation benefits, and other social safety net idea so folks don't lose their homes, etc. AND, a strong trade policy to make sure we are getting access to markets in countries that export to us.

As a proud patriotic American, I believe we can pick option 2 and succeed: bring it on!

He said:

BD wrote: “As a growing global brand, when we evaluate our production we must be unbiased as to the best overall course of action in terms of quality, cost and location. Our aim is to constantly improve our systems and compromise nothing.”

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote:EXCEPT FUTURE US JOB GROWTH AND THE NURTURING AND RETENTION OF A LIVING US KNOWLEDGE BASE AND THE SKILL SETS CAPABLE OF BUILDING HIGH QUALITY GEAR.

Then I said:
What part of "Growing global brand" do you not understand? BD's distribution is not just here in the good 'ol US buddy, just like TNF, just like Burton, Just like nearly everything you find at your friendly outdoor retailer.

Then he said:

BD wrote: “First off, it is important to understand that our manufacturing of goods, specifically pro, is being done in OUR factory in China. This is not an outsourced vendor operation. This is a Black Diamond built, owned, and managed facility that is operated and staffed by Black Diamond employees. The BD team that got the operation going and is managing it has and/or does include the former head of engineering and manufacturing of BD SLC, the second in command of our QA department, our senior special project guy, one of our lead process engineers and a host of other BD employees (including myself) who have shuttled back and forth between BD Asia and BD North America. For that matter, we have had BD Europe employees there helping out as well.”

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote:HOW MANY 1ST CLASS AIR FLIGHTS BY THE BD CEO DID THIS TAKE, ALONG WITH ALL THE OTHER EXPENSES AND TIME SPENT FLYING TO CHINA? FYI: CURRENT 1ST CLASS, SLC TO BEIJING IS APPROX $8500 TO $15,000. ALL THIS SHUTTLING MUST HAVE COST BD IN THE LOW- MID SIX FIGURES ON AIR ALONE.

Then I said:
If you were CEO of a large company would you fly coach; would you not visit your new asset to oversee it? I am going to infer that you would not considering that you are statng the necessary travel involved in such an asset in a negative context. I trust the guy who makes sure his business is sorted out (especially when it comes to pro) rather than the guy who doesn't. Three words: Frequent flyer miles. Two more: Business expense.

Then he said:

BD wrote:“Conversely, we have had a steady flow of BD Asia employees coming here to SLC to train.”

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote: TYPICAL CHINESE BUSINESS THEFT TECHNIQUE, THEY GET YOU TO DIG YOUR OWN GRAVE BY YOU PAYING THEM TO STEAL FROM YOU.

Then I said:
Typical American paranoia. If learning is theft then the world is guilty of it. Technologies have been trading hands via learning (or as you so eloquently stated it, theft. I doubt next time I visit Manhattan and go to Bleeker street I am going to find a bunch of knock off C3's between the Louis Vuitton handbags and Chanel sunglassess

Then he said:

BD wrote:”Secondly, please understand that the testing equipment, testing standards, and training have all come from BD USA and are managed by BD SLC people at this time.”

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote:HOW ABOUT NEXT YEAR?

Then I said:

What about it? Isn't moving up the ladder in a workplace what makes a job worthwile? Should everyone that works in that factory be in a dead end job from day one just because they are Chinese? Just because they are from a society centuries older than ours that discovered quite a few of the technologies that led to industrialization makes them incompetent? Think of where you would be right now without gunpowder dude, you wouldn't be here.

Then he said:

BD wrote:“Thirdly, understand that the supply chain of components and parts is the same as it has been. The cams going onto the Camalots are made from USA-produced 7000 series aluminum, that are machined on our CNCs overseen by our engineers; the anodizing is done by Easton Aluminum here in SLC and then they are shipped to our Asian facility. Cable, springs, and other parts still come from here or from the same suppliers that we were using when we were assembling them here. The supply chain is not changed.”

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote:IF ALL THE PARTS COME FROM THE US, WHY BOTHER SHIPPING THEM TO CHINA TO PUT THEM TOGETHER AND THEN SHIP THEM RIGHT BACK TO THE US? BD CHINA MUST PAY REALLY LOW WAGES TO MAKE THIS WORTHWHILE. ALL THIS SHIPPING = OIL FOR PLANES, SHIPS AND TRUCKS. NOT EXACTLY THE HALLMARKS OF A GREEN ENTERPRISE, AS WE ARE BEING LED TO BELIEVE. ESPECIALLY WHEN OUR TROOPS ARE DYING ON AN ALMOST DAILY BASIS IN THE OIL WAR IN IRAQ. IS EASTON ALUMINUM PLANNING TO START MAKING ALUMINUM SPECIALTY PRODUCTS IN CHINA, TOO?

Then I said:

What part of "Growing global brand" do you not understand? Strategically, China is well placed for that factory to supplement US, European, and Asian markets. Not all of it is getting shipped back here. The foundry/forging and mining aspects of making gear out of metal makes it very difficult to be "green" in the world of protection unless you want your pro to be made from 100% post consumer waste.

Then he said:

BD wrote:“The Asian employees at BD's operation are well trained, dedicated, adult professionals who work in a new, very modern facility that is the envy of people in SLC.”

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote:THE DEATH KNELL FOR BD IN SLC. INNOVATION FOLLOWS MONEY. BD’S CEO IS ADMITTING THAT THE SLC FACILITY DAY’S ARE NUMBERED.

Then I said:

So you are saying b/c this company that is owned and operated by its' employees decided to build a state-of-the-art facility out of country that they are going to effectively fire themselves by closing the very place that puts food on their tables? Sounds like lemming philosophy to me.

Then he said:

BD wrote:“All of them who have worked for us get out climbing on company trips and we have built a very large, climbing wall at the facility that allows employees to climb at lunch and after work. Our training and their dedication is nothing less than inspiring.”

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote:HOW NICE. WE SUBSIDIZE THEIR CLIMBING TRIPS, AS LONG AS AMERICAN CLIMBERS KEEP FORKING OUT THE BD PREMIUM, FOR GEAR THAT WILL NO LONGER BE MADE HERE. WHAT A DEAL.

Then I said:

So you are saying that b/c this company encourages their staff to partake in the activities they manufacture gear for is a negative? This is a privately owned company that can use their revenues in any way they please. If that means giving a little bit back to the people that are making it happen instead of being ungrateful to them then that is their prerogative. These are not your tax dollars, they are profits. There is a difference. I am happy to know that BD's staff uses their own products, I take comfort in that.

Then he said

BD wrote:”As you know, when you order an iPod or a PowerBook directly from Apple it comes directly from their facility in China.”.

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote:BD SEEMS PROUD TO BE FOLLOWING THE US TECH COMPANIES LEAD IN THROWING OVER AMERICAN WORKERS TO MAXIMIZE PROFIT AT ALL COSTS. MACS ETC, WOULD NOT BE MADE IN CHINA IF THEY HAD NOT BEEN INVENTED AND MADE HERE FIRST. IS BD HIRING H-1B WORKERS YET TO FILL THE JOBS THAT WE AMERICANS ARE APPARENTLY NOT CAPABLE OF DOING?

Then I said:

If it weren't for the industrial powerhouse we know as China you would not be able to afford any of these things. The move to China when "Outsourcing" is usually the harbinger of profit seeking, the move to China when you are building your own factory and operating it is usually to maintain value, or expand global distribution

Then he said:

BD wrote:“If you are living in Asia and purchase an Audi A4 or A6 it is being made in China and some of the Euro luxury manufacturers are preparing to export their first Chinese-made cars.”

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote:BD CEO SEEMS TO BE SAYING THAT SINCE EVERYONE ELSE IS CORRUPT, GREEDY AND WOULD KILL THEIR MOTHERS TO GET AHEAD, I WILL TOO.

Then I said:

I think what he was actually trying to say is that China plays more of a role in the manufacturing of goods globally than one may think. I don't think anyone is out to kill any mothers here.

Then he said:

BD wrote:“they take great pride in their work; and are capable of great things.

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote:ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU HAND THEM THE KEYS TO THE FACTORY AND PAY THEM TO LEARN YOUR JOB.

Then I said:

Typically (in my experience with managing personel), one has to prove themselves worthy of administrative responsibilities before they get any keys handed to them (sanitation workers excluded). The keys alone do not transform one into a great employee. But then again I am having a hard time understanding your point on this one aside from the fact that you don't like the Chinese (inferred from the use of the word "them"). "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to the darkside"- Yoda. Don't hate, relate.

Then he said

BD wrote:“The question simply comes down to management and ownership and the vision and commitment of those in charge.

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote:TRUER WORDS WERE NEVER SPOKEN. TO PARAPHRASE HEIDI KLUM: “YOU (AMERICANS) ARE OUT!”

Then I said:

Call it a hunch, but you really want BD to be an evil company that will forsake its' afformentioned employee owned jobs just to be evil. I guess its' possible that they might do away with their own jobs just to be evil, but highly unlikely.

Then he said:

BD wrote:“BD Asia shares BD's ethos, commitment to high quality, and they share our passion for the life-defining activity of climbing. It is truly the world's universal Esperanto a language we all not only speak but feel. BD is a very global brand just like climbing and skiing are global endeavors. For that matter, some of our fastest sales growth has been in China and Asia as a middle class emerges and has time to explore the beauty and challenge of Asia's crags and mountains.”

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote:WILL CHINAS MIDDLE CLASS BE PAYING THE SAME $60 TO $110 A CAM THAT US CLIMBERS PAY? OR WILL THE PRICE OF BD CAMS DROP ACROSS THE BOARD, SAY 30-40%?

Then I said:

China's middle class will not be paying that much due to the fact that BD Asia will not have to carry the ammount of insurance that the US market requires. I highly doubt that this move has dropped the cost of BD's gear by the entire margin that their retailers have (40%).

Then he said:

BD wrote:“The market place feels much like the U.S. felt like in the very late 60s and early 70s.”

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote:BD CEO INVOKING FEEL-GOOD MEMORIES OF YVON CHOUINARD INVENTING AND MAKING CLIMBING GEAR IN VENTURA, CA.

Then I said:

Nope, he is referring to China's marketplace and the great things happening in a country where great things were not allowed to happen not all that long ago. Nice try though.

Then he said:

BD wrote:“BD is committed to being global and to being an intimate and contributing member of each climbing/ski community that we are a part of. That is true in Europe as well. So, this is not about shutting down BD SLC as a manufacturing facility.”

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote:COME SEE THE NEW BD THEME PARK, AND WATCH OLD CLIMBING HIPPIES FORGE PITONS ON A REAL ANVIL WHILE 747’S STREAM INTO THE AIRPORT WITH THE ACTUAL GEAR.

Then I said:

Previously refuted moot point

Then he said:

BD wrote:“to the contrary we have expanded our SLC facility this past year by 50 employees and we are fully maxed out, even with two full shifts.”

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote:HOW MUCH DID THE NEW FACTORY IN CHINA COST?”

Then I said:

Relvance, releveance where for art thou relevance?

Then he said:

BD wrote:“…Over the past year we have been assembling a large percentage of our ice tools at BD China. Technical tools are done at both facilities currently though they may shift fully to BD Asia… In addition, we are assembling ATCs there and plan to slowly shift C3s there over time as well as some other products.”

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote:TRANSLATION: BD’S US MANUFACTURING IS DEAD MEAT.

Then I said:

With the expansion of a product line facilities taylored to manufacture those products function a lot better than trying to manufacture multiple products in an over multitasked environment. So, if a factory is built with making specific products in mind then it will make them more efficiently and with less margin of error. Translated: Safer, and more readily available

Then he said:

BD wrote:“Many products will remain here while some will be done at both facilities in future years. It is a work-in-process. It's "generally" labor intensive assembly that is done at BD China.”.

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote:TYPING PRESS RELEASES HOWEVER, WILL STILL BE DONE IN SLC BY AMERICAN INTERNS.

Then I said:

Stretching to find relevance again. I think what you are trying to say here is that you are a hater

Then he said:

BD wrote:“ Quality assurance is performed both in Salt Lake City and Asia by BD employees. Regardless, it's still BD, and still being made by BD. ..As stated~WBD is proud to have created our own ISO-certified, owned staffed, managed and trained operation in Asia.

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote:FOR HOW LONG?

Then I said:

Again, BD firing itself is highly unlikely

Then he said:

BD wrote:”Our customers are the big beneficiaries here.

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote:THE UNIVERSAL CORPORATE LIE: WAL MART SPEWS THIS OUT IN THEIR TV ADS WHEN THEY TELL EVERYONE HOW MUCH MONEY THEY’VE SAVED BY SHOPPING THERE, EVEN AS THEY DESTROY US COMMUNITIES MANUFACTURING CAPABILITY BY OUT-SOURCING EVERYTHING AND PAYING WAGES THAT ONLY ALLOW ONE TO AFFORD MADE IN CHINA CRAP.

Okay dude, BD is the largest manufacturer of protection in the world. If they cannot keep up with demand then you wait months to get a cam. Or worse they have to hurry production and you get a device that was rushed.

The consumer benefits by being able to get the product and not having to worry about it being slopped together in a slipshod manner b/c demand outweighs production.

You're trying to make it sound like the #6 Camalot was designed with clubbing baby seals in mind. Again, BD is NOT outsourcing. They OWN and OPERATE their factory in China.

Then he said:

BD wrote:”“Thanks for the opportunity to state the facts…”.

Then you sprayed:

Eastvillage wrote:SPIN THE FACTS.

Yes Village, you tried to spin it. Unfortunately your reading comprehension is lacking and your knowledge of BD is limited. Before you decide to spray all over a damn fine company you might want to research your target before you spray it with bullets. Every point you made was refutable by anyone who has sat through just one BD clinic. You might be taken a bit more seriously if you used your real name too.

East Village???
Sounds like New York City to me...

Why use cams, when you can bitch about them so much better?

I dont know if anyone has done this...but I emailed the company and got this response...

Thank you for the email and feedback. It sounds as though you have already made up your mind, this may or may not change your opinion, but I wanted to pass along this letter from our CEO regarding our Black Diamond Asia facility.

BD is 100% committed to building the finest climbing gear on the planet. We go to great lengths to evaluate our processes in house and gain third party certification to the extent that we lead the industry in this regard. As a growing global brand, when we evaluate our production we must be unbiased as to the best overall course of action in terms of quality, cost and location. Our aim is to constantly improve our systems and compromise nothing. First off, it is important to understand that our manufacturing of goods, specifically pro, is being done in OUR factory in China. This is not an outsourced vendor operation. This is a Black Diamond built, owned, and managed facility that is operated and staffed by Black Diamond employees.

The BD team that got the operation going and is managing it has and/or does include the former head of engineering and manufacturing of BD SLC, the second in command of our QA department, our senior special project guy, one of our lead process engineers and a host of other BD employees (including myself) who have shuttled back and forth between BD Asia and BD North America. For that matter, we have had BD Europe employees there helping out as well. Conversely, we have had a steady flow of BD Asia employees coming here to SLC to train. Secondly, please understand that the testing equipment, testing standards, and training have all come from BD USA and are managed by BD SLC people at this time. For that matter, our BD facility just passed ts ISO-9001 audit that was performed by the same French Senior Auditor from APAV-ASCERT that has been certifying our SLC operation for the past half dozen years. He had nothing but compliments and we are THE first company in our industry to have certification via a European certified body.

Thirdly, understand that the supply chain of components and parts is the same as it has been. The cams going onto the Camalots are made from USA-produced7000 series aluminum, that are machined on our CNCs overseen by our engineers; the anodizing is done by Easton Alumuinum here in SLC and then they are shipped to our Asian facility. Cable, springs, and other parts still come from here or from the same suppliers that we were using when we were assembling them here. The supply chain is not changed.

The Asian employees at BD's operation are well trained, dedicated, adult professionals who work in a new, very modern facility that is the envy of people in SLC. All of them who have worked for us get out climbing on company trips and we have built a very large, climbing wall at the facility that allows employees to climb at lunch and after work. Our training and their dedication is nothing less than inspiring.

As you know, when you order an iPod or a PowerBook directly from Apple it comes directly from their facility in China. If you are living in Asia and purchase an Audi A4 or A6 it is being made in China and some of the Euro luxury manufacturers are preparing to export their first Chinese-made cars. Having climbed and worked in China, I can assure you that the Chinese are a joy to climb with; take great pride in their work; and are capable of great things. The question simply comes down to management and ownership and the vision and commitment of those in charge.

BD Asia shares BD's ethos, commitment to high quality, and they share our passion for the life-defining activity of climbing. It is truly the world's universal Esperanto a language we all not only speak but feel. BD is a very global brand just like climbing and skiing are global endeavors. For that matter, some of our fastest sales growth has been in China and Asia as a middle class emerges and has time to explore the beauty and challenge of Asia's crags and mountains. The marketplace feels much like the U.S. felt like in the very late 60s and early 70s.

BD is committed to being global and to being an intimate and contributing member of each climbing/ski community that we are a part of. That is true in Europe as well. So, this is not about shutting down BD SLC as a manufacturing facility, to the contrary we have expanded our SLC facility this past year by 50 employees and we are fully maxed out, even with two full shifts. It's about the right products in the right places with the right skill sets and expertise, all by BD employees. We view this expansion very much as an extension of what we are already doing. The processes, materials, quality assurance are all the same. It's still Black Diamond.

Over the past year we have been assembling a large percentage of our ice tools at BD China. Technical tools are done at both facilities currently though they may shift fully to BD Asia. In addition, we are assembling ATCs there and plan to slowly shift C3s there over time as well as some other products. Many products will remain here while some will be done at both facilities in future years. It is a work-in-process. It's "generally"labor intensive assembly that is done at BD China. Quality assurance is performed both in Salt Lake City and Asia by BD employees.

Regardless, it's still BD, and still being made by BD. Finally you should be aware that the majority of our competitors are having climbing hardware products made for them at OEM facilities in Taiwan and China but they neither control nor manage these and most seem to avoid country of origin labels by bringing the goods in via Europe or claiming them as "sub-assemblies" (i.e. two carabiners that are clipped to a draw are a sub-assembly and hence don't say they are made in China, Taiwan or wherever and you are left thinking they are made in Europe). As stated~WBD is proud to have created our own ISO-certified, owned, staffed, managed and trained operation in Asia. Our customers are the big beneficiaries here.

Thanks for the opportunity to state the facts,

THE EMPLOYEE OWNERS OF BLACK DIAMOND EQUIPMENT

Michal Turczyk wrote:You guys should go climbing more.

Ha!!!
I go everyday but I am parked behind a computer watching people post mindless drivel from 9-5.

Shiloh wrote:I dont know if anyone has done this...but I emailed the company and got this response...

Shiloh, read the thread before you post in it.

I thought I’d follow up a little to my previous post.
My rack is 98% BD gear. I am very fond my BD gear. I trust it with my life. My harsh criticisms of the company are based on this.
If BD's factory in SLC is maxed out, then why not simply build a larger facility somewhere in the SLC valley? I’m sure this could have been accomplished much more quickly than starting a China factory. The US is currency is very weak compared to major international currencies, so this would make good business sense, too.
Increased exports BD’s high quality, highly regarded, US made gear would help our country’s pathetic trade deficit.

So instead of this, BD is giving seminars about how great their new China factory is for US climbers?
What a bunch of BS. It’s a sales pitch. Congratulations if you bought it.
I love the current US climate, where protest is seen as unpatriotic and critical thought is frowned upon by the authorities.
Have a happy meal day,

Gahan Haskins

maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl…

Daniel Crescenzo wrote:TO ALL YOU FOLKS THAT HAVE DECIDED TO SIDE AGAINST BD: I am going to the creek in a couple of weeks and I will take all your camalots off your hands (you don't want that commie red shit on your rack, you're fuckin' americans dammit!). So just pm me and we'll figure out a time and a place where I can take those awful pieces off your hands. Don't worry I will dispose of them responsibly.

Yeah, OK, whatever. Have fun and be safe! I'll keep my U.S. made camalots for myself, thanks. As for my last post-I take all of the hits for fun. Thanks for the lecture on global economy.

Perhaps I was a bit too harsh. I have purchased many BD products over the past years including: camalots, ice axes, crampons, biners, slings, quick-draws, gadgets and gizmos, etc. Past lay offs have made me bitter about foreign production of US products because my job was taken away by off-shore workers(Jed, your advice about keeping educated is well taken, buddy:) )

In the end, after my rants and mis-guided postings, I will continue to purchase BD equipment. However, I am disappointed to learn that Black Diamond has turned to offshore labor.

-Shane

Production costs in China are lower (the only reason production moves there) so retail prices should be lower. BD prices haven't gone down, they've gone up. That's a reason to boycott, as well as boycott other companies that produce in third world countries and don't pass the savings on to consumers. In addition BD camalots are the least durable of all cams, with trigger cables/wires needing replacement every year. Friend wires never need replacement.

Outsourcing means hiring others, usually at a lower wage with no benefits, usually from a third party, to do your work. Owning and operating a plant using labor that makes 1/10 the wage of US workers is clearly outsourcing by any definition. If it wasn't outsourcing they would have transferred the American workers and continued paying them American level wages, to China.
Since BD is employee owned are the Chinese workers employee owners? NO.
If it brought in foreign labor at a lower wage to the US that would also be outsourcing. BD is blatantly misleading us. Used American made gear can be had for less $ then new Chinese made gear.

Jed P:
You survived layoffs by who you knew and brownnosed. Or you work in the public sector/government. Or you're a partner. Or you had an indispensable skill and were stupidly being payed at half of market rate. Or you worked 100 hours per week including weekends and holidays. Maybe you generated a huge amount of sales for the company while working on a low salary and no commission. Layoffs are half political and half practical. If investing a lot of time in education and career development were a cure for layoffs then no highly educated, experienced, trained and certified person would ever be layed off. Work at a real, large corporation where you're daddy isn't president. But you won't. Predictable.
"I work in high tech as well and have survived dozens of layoffs, basically because I've invested a lot of time and energy in my education and career development. Layoffs can strike anyone, but the typical victims are generally predictable."

I'd like to hear more about the environmental standards at BD China. If anyone has any information regarding this please share. If nothing shows up in a few days I'll write BD an email and post any response here.

I should also add that I am really impressed by the transparent response from BD. Even if I decide to stop supporting them, I will still respect this.

money.cnn.com/2007/09/02/ne…

JSW, you think that with lower labor costs in China that BD should have lowered prices. And because prices for cams have not come down that this is so outrageous that we should boycott.

But what about raw material costs? Aluminum up almost 60% in 2006 over 2004. econstats.com/spot/rt_alum.htm

And maybe you noticed that gas prices have risen a little bit over the last couple years?

I just think you need to get a bit of perspective here before calling for a boycott -- it's not like BD just went into partnership with the Sudanese government.

And then you say "BD is blatantly misleading us". How so? You may disagree with the definition of "outsourcing" but their long email was pretty crystal-clear about the arrangement with their China plant.