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WSJ article: "REI Ends Era of Many Happy Returns"
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By J Q
Sep 20, 2013
Me again!

Keny Glasscock wrote:
I've returned stuff that was defective, policy allows that..



You are missing the point, the policy was for any reason you found unsatisfactory, not only with defective items.

Every major company has a defective policy, REI was the only one with a satisfactory policy.

I could not honor satisfaction, only defections, because that was what the companies who's gear I was selling were offering.

Perhaps this is why there is so much confusion as to the policy and how it was used to put others out of business. Terminology is everything in law.


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By Ray Pinpillage
From West Egg
Sep 20, 2013
Cleo's Needle

J Q wrote:
Wrong wrong wrong and wright. I did have a business plan, did have market analysis by investment professionals, and managed my business properly for over 20 years, quite a long time in fact. Telling someone who owned a retail business for 20 years that they don't understand business only makes yourself more transparent: you don't understand retail so you should probably listen and not talk. I put children through college, funded a retirement, and paid for employee houses, cars, vacations; shit, I helped send five kids to college who don't even know my name. In that aspect it was a complete success. On the other hand, I obviously failed in the long run. I just find it really frustrating that now, after one entity corners the market, the parameters that were used to put me out of business have changed. They had more funding, thus more overhead, and thus could take the loss of the returns that were fundamental to their business plan. I did not have the funding, the overhead, and could not compete with their model. I know why I went out of business, do you?? Oh yea, they cut those practices out as soon as the last family retail store went out of business. It sounds like the conservatives on this site really don't understand business, just how to worship wealth.


I only know what you've posted. REI opened up next door and you couldn't compete. You said your customers cited the return policy for going next door. If that is not the case just say so. Regardless, REI didn't put you under.

I have the luxury of seeing all kinds of operations of different scope. Many have been around 20 years like you. I have seen small businesses go under. Not once was it the competitions fault. I'm sure that hurts but you brought it up.


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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Sep 20, 2013
tanuki

Ray Pinpillage wrote:
I only know what you've posted. REI opened up next door and you couldn't compete. You said your customers cited the return policy for going next door. If that is not the case just say so. Regardless, REI didn't put you under. I have the luxury of seeing all kinds of operations of different scope. Many have been around 20 years like you. I have seen small businesses go under. Not once was it the competitions fault. I'm sure that hurts but you brought it up.


"Not once?" In this age of big box stores and predatory pricing (along with other tactics to destroy smaller and less capitalized competitors), it happens all the time.


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By Ray Pinpillage
From West Egg
Sep 21, 2013
Cleo's Needle

NC Rock Climber wrote:
"Not once?" In this age of big box stores and predatory pricing (along with other tactics to destroy smaller and less capitalized competitors), it happens all the time.


Unless there is government intervention, competition does not decide if you stay in business (assuming we keep talking about retail sales). The rest is just hyperbole to shift blame.


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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Sep 21, 2013
tanuki

Ray, you are completely full of shit. I am not going to debate with you because it is not worth it.


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By Jake Jones
From The Eastern Flatlands
Sep 21, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

OK, who's hungry for some balls?


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By Ray Pinpillage
From West Egg
Sep 21, 2013
Cleo's Needle

NC Rock Climber wrote:
Ray, you are completely full of shit. I am not going to debate with you because it is not worth it.


Not a fan of economics?


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By David Sahalie
From on the road again
Sep 21, 2013

let me get this straight Ray, you are saying the mom and pop stores that used to dot the landscape of middle America went under because they didn't have a good business plan?

Really? It couldn't have had to do with municipalities giving massive tax breaks and land to Walmart? ...and the massive buying power and tax breaks Walfart gets from the Feds?

Turn off Faux news dude.


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By Josh Kornish
Sep 21, 2013
The Roach

I just find it funny that as I read this there is a REI ad in the upper right corner.

I have used and abused the policy and now that is really the only reason I ever shopped there.


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By Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Sep 21, 2013
...

I am GLAD that the return policy has changed.

Keep those using MoFo's at bay!


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By Mark Pilate
Sep 21, 2013

This thread has come full circle...I now agree with David (on a few points)

Walmarts aside, any business plan that tries to make money off of climbers is a bad business plan -- Doomed to failure.

That's why TNF, REI, etc etc all eventually leave us in the dirt and move to the soccer Moms, campus wear, and noobs.

Some larger areas can support specialty shops for serious bikers, climbers, kayakers, etc but the demographics and margins are thin.

My only beef is that ass-clownery merely speeds up the trend towards noobery and now I have to order everything online.

By the way, I wouldn't step foot in a Walmart if they were giving away free C4's....


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By Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Sep 21, 2013
...

"
By the way, I wouldn't step foot in a Walmart if they were giving away free C4's..."



I call TOTAL BULLSHIT on that!

;-)


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By Ray Pinpillage
From West Egg
Sep 21, 2013
Cleo's Needle

David Sahalie wrote:
let me get this straight Ray, you are saying the mom and pop stores that used to dot the landscape of middle America went under because they didn't have a good business plan? Really? It couldn't have had to do with municipalities giving massive tax breaks and land to Walmart? ...and the massive buying power and tax breaks Walfart gets from the Feds? Turn off Faux news dude.


That's government intervention. Government picked the winner. If the playing field is even the customer picks the winner. Without government intervention the market (consumers) decides who stays in business. If I go off of what J Q posted then his customers decided that REI presented a better value for their dollars.

Businesses come and go with or without big-box retail. Strong competition exposes weak businesses. Like I said, I see a lot of businesses. I can think of a bunch that have just been getting by, doing nothing special, for 20 years. If a strong competitor moved in next door they'd be in real trouble.

If you read through this thread there are people who do not believe REI is as strong a competitor others do. I happen to agree; in my state we have some very competitive climbing shops. They do not have unlimited lifetime guaranties but they still offer a better value than REI. They do so by providing superior service, better selection, and better pricing when they can.

I don't like big-box retail (including REI). I've been in Walmart five times this year total. I shop at small retailers every chance I get unless they don't have what I need. I live in a small town, we have a Walmart and other Big-Box but we also have thriving small businesses. I value the small businesses and my community which is why my dollars go to them. However, I also value competition and hate excuses. Either compete or don't but don't blame the guy next door because your customers fired you.


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By Kirby1013
From Baltimore Maryland
Sep 21, 2013
Me eating a cliff bar walking back from Frankenstein Amphitheater

Keny Glasscock wrote:
No, I read your post. Beginners blow out shoes, precisely in the location you alluded to. take your lumps and keep at it and you can say you wore out your shoes from use, not bad technique. I've returned stuff that was defective, policy allows that. But if a person is actually using the gear it wouldn't take 6 months to figure out it's defective, unless as you say "it's my first pair". I would never return a pair of shoes I wore a hole in, but that's me.


I gotta defective fitting from an REI employee. Haha.. The amount of time was crazy long because of ignorance of the policy. I went to the Mountaineer for my second pair and despite me saying these are too tight a hundred times. they were right. The TC Pros stretched out and fit great. The way I see it you fit me wrong you owe me the right size. You fit me right and I decide to buy the wrong size.. you owe me a "I told you so" and get the hell outta my shop!

I will however agree that returning those shoes with a hole in them is suspect. I just figured no matter what condition they're the wrong size. Plus I caved to peer pressure!


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By Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Sep 21, 2013
...

"The way I see it you fit me wrong you owe me the right size"

Concerning shoes. If you can't already ON YOUR OWN tell if a fucking shoe fits or not, maybe you should have Mom tie them for you next time you go out climbing.

I mean what the fuck?

What happens? You go to REI and some n00b employee without a clue gives you a size 3 when you wear a size 8 and you go, "OK" ?


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By Kirby1013
From Baltimore Maryland
Sep 21, 2013
Me eating a cliff bar walking back from Frankenstein Amphitheater

Locker wrote:
"The way I see it you fit me wrong you owe me the right size" Concerning shoes. If you can't already ON YOUR OWN tell if a fucking shoe fits or not, maybe you should have Mom tie them for you next time you go out climbing. I mean what the fuck? What happens? You go to REI and some n00b employee without a clue gives you a size 3 when you wear a size 8 and you go, "OK" ?


Loop swoop and pull? no way! My new Miura VS that I stole from REI are Velcro Baby!


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By Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Sep 21, 2013
...

"My new Miura VS that I stole"


Well at least your Mom taught you how to BARGAIN SHOP.

;-)


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By nicelegs
From Denver
Sep 21, 2013

Does this mean I have to learn how to patch Thermarests?


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By Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Sep 21, 2013
...

It means they drink your milkshake.


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By Ian G.
From PDX, OR
Sep 21, 2013
Mens Crisis Center .12a

I keep seeing and hearing over and over that climbers are cheap...are they really? I guess that there is a not insignificant subset of climbers who are true dirtbags (I used to be one) and will try and worm out of paying for a $5 campsite (or return blown out shite to REI).

But I would contend that the majority of climbers, especially regular climbers are not what I would call "cheap." Most climbers I know have full time jobs and can damn well afford all the shiny new gear they need.

Climbers as a whole are not cheap. Cheap is ghetto kids playing basketball with shoes completely worn through the sole. Cheap is people in Brazil playing soccer barefoot. Cheap is locals in Costa Rica surfing better than you on a broken board from the 80's. How many software engineers with salaries over 100k went to the Valley this weekend?


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By Tparis
From Pottersville,New York
Sep 21, 2013
fall foliage 5.7+ slab

Locker wrote:
" By the way, I wouldn't step foot in a Walmart if they were giving away free C4's..." I call TOTAL BULLSHIT on that! ;-)

He would send his wife/GF/kids in to get them!!


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By CJC
Sep 21, 2013

it's not really about being cheap

it's that sense of entitlement so emblematic of the American Douchebag


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By Mark Pilate
Sep 21, 2013

Ian - my point was not so much that climbers are cheap, just that the population of non-cheap climbers, even if in the majority, is not large enough to sustain even big stores like REI, let alone many small retailers. (with some key exceptions in prime climbing venues)

The money is in appealing to a larger population who tend to be generalists, not hard-core. That's why the selections at REI suck if you are looking for specific "harder core" specialty items.



Tparis - Good thinking...


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By Buff Johnson
Sep 21, 2013
smiley face

I need some cheese


to go along with this whiney bitch theater


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By Buff Johnson
Sep 21, 2013
smiley face

you might be "extreme," but are you pastel sahara sunset extreme??


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