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By rock_fencer
From Columbia, SC
Dec 5, 2012
Myself placing a a blue/yellow offset MC to protect between Bolt 2/3 just post crux . <br /> <br />Picture credit goes to eric Singleton, and many thanks to Josh Bagget for the great belay.

so does anyone climb in a synthetic/down puffy on rock...or do all these jackets with the UL fabrics just get tore up and i should stick to climbing in a fleece and be looking at a lightweight belay jacket.


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By Michael Boardman
Dec 5, 2012

Thanks for articulate expression Stephan. We do need to step up our product development to retain your business.


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By Dave Bn
From Fort Collins, CO
Dec 5, 2012
Dreamweaver

rock_fencer wrote:
so does anyone climb in a synthetic/down puffy on rock...or do all these jackets with the UL fabrics just get tore up and i should stick to climbing in a fleece and be looking at a lightweight belay jacket.


The Nano puff is pretty burly from what I hear. Have a friend who had a late night (multiple) bike "accident" while wearing his Nano and supposedly it emerged unscathed.


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By bearbreeder
Dec 5, 2012

rock_fencer wrote:
so does anyone climb in a synthetic/down puffy on rock...or do all these jackets with the UL fabrics just get tore up and i should stick to climbing in a fleece and be looking at a lightweight belay jacket.


like i said it depends on what you climb, how much you climb and honestly some blind luck ... eventually it wil wear through

if youre sport climbing or something with a similar style with very little body contact, it wont matter

if youre climbing trad or a style with a lot of body contact, deep jams and grovelling ... youll get holes sooner or later ...

and im not about the occasional ... "oh i had to do a short chimney pitch and it survived" ... but day after day of said climbing

i find that windshirts (a synth puffy is basically a thin windshirt with insulation) get holes within about 20+ pitches of yosemite/squamish style hand/fist/offwidth/chimney jamming ...

you need to ask yourself 2 questions

1. are you cold when moving or at belays

2. and if the former do you really want to spend 150-250$ (assuming you get one of those fancy brand names) on something that will be in regular full contact with the rock if that is your climbing style


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By scott cooney
From La Casa Taco
Dec 5, 2012
11th hour of the Sundial

rock_fencer wrote:
so does anyone climb in a synthetic/down puffy on rock...or do all these jackets with the UL fabrics just get tore up and i should stick to climbing in a fleece and be looking at a lightweight belay jacket.



I'll give a +1 to bear breader, personally I use a patagucci down sweatshirt with hood for my alpine climbs, but I don't climb in it, it comes out at the belays. for moving I run a lil warm so a standard capilene shirt for a base which is usually the exposed layer while climbing. the down sweater is my choice for the belay due to its self stow pocket and clip loop, that way it can be on my harness while I climb and I don't need a pack to have it with me on lead. I think if I was forced to wear it while leading it wouldn't survive very long at all, really feels fragile as all heck. as far as WT goes I had already contacted them via social media suggesting they add the self stow and loop to their insulight jacket, and if they do I'll switch to that over the patagucci, but until then I'm sticking with what functions the way I need it to, and for a climbing jacket the ability to take it with, without a pack is crucial on harder alpine routes. for a layer heavier than capilene to actively climb in I'd reccomend something like R1 with its one side fleece so the outside is more abrasion resistant.


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By rock_fencer
From Columbia, SC
Dec 5, 2012
Myself placing a a blue/yellow offset MC to protect between Bolt 2/3 just post crux . <br /> <br />Picture credit goes to eric Singleton, and many thanks to Josh Bagget for the great belay.

Food for thought.

Mostly cold at belays i guess Bearbreeder. Though quite frequently on the rock as well but that probably more due to lack of a good R1 style layer.

In the mean time i gifted myself a new pair of soft shell pants for my birthday. now to just finish med school finals and get out climbing as much as possible for three weeks.

Appreciate all the beta.

Cheers
T


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By bearbreeder
Dec 5, 2012

then i suggest a 100g/m+ primaloft (assuming freezing level, if colder get more insulation) belay jacket that you can use at belays ... should be fitted so that it can easily go over your softshell ...

youll either carry this jacket in a leaders pack ... or tie it bandolier style around your shoulder (make sure you zip it up so that it doesnt flop around too much) though this will wear it out as well, so i buy cheap and onsale ...

now "primaloft one" is better if you are paying full price ... but you ARE going to see sick 50%+ off sales in the next month or so on perfectly functional belay jackets ... and if you see one using a "lesser" insulation like "primaloft sport" or "microtherm", etc ... if the price is really right then those will work perfectly fine, if slightly less warm for the weight

if moisture isnt an issue down is warmer for the weight than anything else ... you WILL see sales on 800+fill down jackets over the holidays as well

wild things does have 100 g/m+ hooded jackets for 84$ right now ...

www.wildthingsgear.com/wild-things/shop/heritage-primaloft-s>>>


heres the best article on belay jackets

www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/the_belay_jacket


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By Tits McGee
From Boulder, CO
Dec 5, 2012
How I Send

Ultimately, it was the expectation that WT was going to return where they left off that let me down. Which they did. I was expecting ultra light, ultra durable innovation. Instead I got a "good" product, that doesn't really match up to the top brands of the industry.

So in reality, Wild Things is starting from scratch. Give it a couple of years and I am sure they will come through with the same level of quality and innovation they have built their reputation on...hopefully.

As for puffy jackets...
Most LT/Nano/Lite jackets won't give you enough insulation for a true belay jacket. As Bear stated, 100+ grams of insulation is what you want to look for in a true winter/ice/alpine belay jacket.


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By Dane
Dec 5, 2012
Cham '11

You won't be climbing technical ground in a 100g jacket even in pretty cold winter temps with out over heating. That is the standard belay jacket weight on most terrain in NA short of Alaska or Canada over nights in winter.

You can climb pretty easily in cool temps in a 60g garment. Including Alaska and Canadian winters. Even easier if the garment vents well on the side like the Atom LT. R1 layer under them is typically enough.

The 60g garments won't last for ever if you are rubbing them on rocks. No worse than any lwt shell garment however. May be better than most. But then again they are warmer and likely half the weight or less of a typical soft shell. They'll almost certainly breath better and be warmer and drier as well tha a soft shell. On ice they will last almost for ever if you are reasonably careful.

2oz is 56g
60g garments are sweater weight made to climb in


100g garments are lwt belay jackets *Atom SV*
4oz is 112g

100g+ is a full on belay jacket

DAS is a 170g +/- depending on year of production


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By Brian Abram
From Columbia, SC
Dec 10, 2012
Brian Abram, leading pitch 2 of Dinkus Dog on the South Side of Looking Glass.  Kyle Sox is belaying.

It appears that WT has already responded a bit. Primaloft One is now an option on their custom Insulight jackets.

www.wildthingsgear.com/wild-things/make-it-wild/custom-insul>>>


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By Matt Shove
From Ragged Mountain
Dec 10, 2012

I've always purchased Wild Things insulated jackets because they are more durable than anything else. That Epic shell is the deal maker, not the deal breaker. For professional use, one can purchase the latest and lightest, but you'll need to replace it before the next season. If WT can keep the highest quality synthtetic insulation, with a durable shell cover, they will always get my money. I now have an Atom SV (?) and I'm impressed. I wonder if it will last as long as my WT EP though...5 years and counting.


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By bearbreeder
Dec 10, 2012

Brian Abram wrote:
It appears that WT has already responded a bit. Primaloft One is now an option on their custom Insulight jackets.



something to consider now that patagucci and others are moving away from PL1 to the cheaper insulations ... if you are buying new

of course even el cheapo brands use PL1 like the latest MEC 100/m+ jackets for 85-100$, the EB FA ones that are often onsale, hell even LL Bean uses PL1 ...

if a "high end" brand name doesnt use PL1, you really gotta ask what yr getting when these "budget brands" do ...

course the best thing is just to get what is on a big sale regardless if yr using it on rock ;)


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By Dane
Dec 10, 2012
Cham '11

"if a "high end" brand name doesnt use PL1, you really gotta ask what yr getting when these "budget brands" do "

what he said.


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By Christian Mason
From Arvada, CO
Dec 10, 2012
Dragon's Tongue - Vail, Co.

Ray Pinpillage wrote:
Custom clothing, unless tailored, has always been a huge letdown for me. I bought a very expensive Beyond custom softshell and it was total crap. I'm not willing to go through that again.


What were you disappointed with in the Beyond jacket?
I have one that I absolutely love. It took them WAY longer to get it to me than anticipated, which was pretty disappointing, but I'm very happy with the qualify of the product.


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By Michael Boardman
Dec 10, 2012

Dane,

The economics are pretty simple. PrimaLoft ONE isn't available domestically. In fact it's very expensive to get it into the US for domestic manufacturing. One can argue fairly convincingly that brands that manufacture overseas, including the cheaper brands, have access to better materials. This is precisely how companies get driven into foreign manufacturing. Makes me sad.


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By Tits McGee
From Boulder, CO
Dec 10, 2012
How I Send

A number of companies have gone to their own proprietary synthetic insulation. Is the cost of import/production of PL1 the reasoning behind this? Will Wild Things venture more into fabric development domestically, similar to Patagonia's development of the Regulator/Powerstretch fabrics?

It seems to be a leader in the outerwear industry, strong partnerships with Fabric Mills/Developers is a must. Will it be possible for Wild Things to invest in this, or will it be left to the big five companies to continue the trend?


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By Dane
Dec 10, 2012
Cham '11

Mike, I think what you guys are doing at WT is laudable. Nice to have a choice in fill material. Good lesson in your online catalog of choices for the economics of Primaloft.

Patagonia doesn't do any domestic manufacturing that I am aware of and they have bailed for the most part on Primaloft 1. Even though it is a better insulation for the use specific garments are designed for.

WT is the first manufacture to at least openly show you the difference in insulation costs. The next step imo would be to show the advantages and disadvanges of the costs when you are making a choice. Synergy and Eco in a climbing specific garment makes no sense to me when you look at the little added cost of materials.

Given the choice one might make an arguement for Primaloft Eco price point if you have some facts to go by for comparison.

From Primaloft:
Primaloft One 0.92 dry / .90 wet, clo/oz
Primaloft Sport 0.79 dry /.72 wet, clo/oz
Synergy .73 dry / .61 wet, clo/oz
ECO .68 dry/ .60 wet, clo/oz

That might be an easy thing for WTs to do on their web site.

I spent a few spare minutes this morning "making" my own WT garments on line. Colors are cool. More options on the actual construction is way more important to me than colors. The only thing that keeps me from ordering is the fit issues people have voiced. More pocket choices would help that purchase along. Choice on zipper length (1/2 or 3/4) and with or without beathable side vents would make that an easy sale.


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By bearbreeder
Dec 10, 2012

the patagucci DAS/micropuff isnt produced in the US ... its made in vietnam so theres no excuse for that particular company ...

i suspect that more companies are going proprietary to

1. avoid paying some soft of fee for primaloft

2. "develop" their own brand names, they dont want to get stuck in the gore tex trap again

3. making it hard to compare the insulation across brands ... because smart people will just ask themselves "they why does a jacket cost twice the price when it has the same insulation???" ... when you have a $$$$$ brand, the last thing you want is for the consummer to find out that the LL BEAN or MEC piece would basically be as warm for much cheap, which is already happening

remember that a lot of the outdoor clothing industry isnt based on objective analysis ... its based on "hey i see (insert name) using this, and everyone on MP is raving about it (flavor of the month) so it MUST be the best and 10x better than something made by a cheaper brand that is half the price even though the cheaper brand uses the same or better materials, has the same warranty and still gives back 1% to the earth"

rational thought does not sell $$$$$$$ jackets

the best way to get around this? ... never ever ever pay for a jacket (or outdoor clothing) that aint on a deep sale ... allowing for personal fit, all "decent" brand name will work as well as you use em ...

compare this jacket at 1/2 the price ... but is now only 1/3 the price on sale to the DAS ...

www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/MensClothing/InsulatedOuterwear/PRD~5>>>


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By Michael Boardman
Dec 10, 2012

Dane,

Thanks for the input. Some great ideas here. Yep, coming out with fit mistakes a year ago hasn't helped. Keep in mind that this was the company's first attempt at fit that wasn't unisex. Not excusable, just explainable. Truth is, if we'd done a good job staying current over the years, this wouldn't even be an issue. The WT fit would be well established. As long we can keep responding, we should see improvement. I tested a piece off the custom line over the weekend, and I thought the fit was pretty spot on for my Medium frame.

I bet I can work in some of the comparisons that you mention. Thanks.


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By GhaMby
From Heaven
Feb 28, 2013
Are you Chicken, or fishy?

So did any of you buy the Original Hooded Primaloft Sweater from Wild Things. I'm thinking it's a decent value, but only if it's truly comparable to the much loved Patagonia Nano Puff Hoody and the sizing is good (as in it stays tucked into my harness if I choose to climb in it. I can get a Patagonia Nano Puff for $12 more than the Wild Things since I can get the Paty with free shipping, compared to the $10 shipping WT charges. If I new that I wouldn't be out the shipping charges I might order it just to try it on, but...

Wild Things Original Hooded Primaloft Sweater


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By rock_fencer
From Columbia, SC
Feb 28, 2013
Myself placing a a blue/yellow offset MC to protect between Bolt 2/3 just post crux . <br /> <br />Picture credit goes to eric Singleton, and many thanks to Josh Bagget for the great belay.

I put in an order for one this week. Haven't gotten it yet. Didnt go with Patagonia because there cut is way too boxy for me and I think supporting WT in the long run will help keep them in business so they can refine their line.


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By scott cooney
From La Casa Taco
Feb 28, 2013
11th hour of the Sundial

the one down side to the hooded sweatshirt from WT is the hood is somewhat small... like difficult to get over a helmet small, doable but tight. other than that I think its a great value


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By GhaMby
From Heaven
Feb 28, 2013
Are you Chicken, or fishy?

I definately need to be able to fit the hood over a helmet.

I like the idea of supporting US made companies, but I recently had the following thought:

In most "third-world" nations a job spent sitting at a sewing machine for 10 hours a day is probably better than many other jobs available to the general public, while in the Great USA a job sewing for ~8 hours a day would be one of the shittiest jobs imaginable.

Not sure what I should do with this 'thought', maybe it just clears my guilt when I buy something made from out of country. I do have to say that I have quite a few pairs of US made boots and dress shoes for work, and cheap boots made in the US are just as shitty as cheap boots made in China, although a bit more expensive than the cheap chinese ones (I'm talking about you Chippewa!!!). This makes me think that the cheap Wild Things Jacket is likely shittier than the nano puff jacket, but maybe I am just paying the difference to have Patagonia emblazened across my chest.

I also want to mention that I HATE THE NEW WT logo!!! It looks rediculous in my opinion, but I have always like the old wildthings logo.

Does anyone know if the OG hooded Primaloft jacket has a coil or toothed zipper??? That is one thing I wish more companies would do, put the much more durable toothed zippers on, them f-ing coils get dust in them and become useless in a hurry.


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