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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Dec 14, 2012
Stoked...

Red Tagger wrote:
Tisk, tisk. Already talking about exceptions are we gentleman? If it has been led then don't bolt it unless...it was done on hooks...the FA gives permission...the gear "sucks"...the toprope creates erosion...etc? What happens if you can't contact the FA? Is the route then taken "hostage"? What if the FA says no? Is the route then also a "hostage"? What if it was done on gear but that gear just isn't up to your personal standards? How come I don't believe that you can't resist grid bolting the whole thing? All I ask is that you are honest with yourselves, you want bolt everything so that you can "lead" it without any risk, isn't that the truth? People will always justify what they want in their minds to get their way.


1. it was done on hooks - Yes bolt
2. the FA gives permission - Yes bolt
3. the gear "sucks" - no because there's gear
4. the toprope creates erosion - yes bolt
5. you can't contact the FA - try to gain consensus
6. What if the FA says no? - No bolting
7. What if it was done on gear but that gear just isn't up to your personal standards? - you mean like tied down hooks? Pretty sure that's no one's standard and gear has improved greatly so someone would have to have pretty wack standards to prefer older gear over newer gear. In the case of hooks, see above.

Re Grid Bolting: Well honestly the place hasn't been grid bolted so if we couldn't resist grid bolting, wouldn't it be that way now several years later? Also if it was grid bolted why are a handful of the routes MIXED routes requiring some gear to prevent ground fall potential? I can think of at least 5 routes with bolts that also need trad gear.

Re you want bolt everything so that you can "lead" it without any risk: Ha don't make me laugh - this statement pretty much tells me you haven't climbed any of the newer routes there and you're taking a very generalized and misconceived trad view. There's plenty of risk left in these routes, 20 ft wippers, ground fall from 20ft etc. Most the guaranteed X/death factor has been removed yes.


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Dec 14, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

Red Tagger wrote:
Climbing is climbing and it's sad that people get so wrapped up in how they do something.


Pardon me for saying so, but this seems highly hypocritical coming from you. I understand your perspective, and I think parts of it have merit. But for you to say this, insinuates that you're cool with any discipline of climbing when clearly you are not. You are a staunch supporter of anti-bolting sentiments- which also means you are rather wrapped up in how you do something, not to mention how other people do it as well.

I don't really take issue with your opinion (unyielding as it may be), and I feel it is a valuable "other side" to the coin. I think everyone is entitled to their own stance and it's good to see someone that is passionate- as long as that stance isn't misrepresented.


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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Dec 14, 2012
Stoked...

have fun kids... off to put up a new (not TR) CT FA.


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By superkick
From West Hartford, CT
Dec 14, 2012
Free Solo up hitchcock gully WI3

doesnt count if you wont share where the cliff is :P


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By Brian
From North Kingstown, RI
Dec 14, 2012

CaptainMo wrote:
1. it was done on hooks - Yes bolt 2. the FA gives permission - Yes bolt 3. the gear "sucks" - no because there's gear 4. the toprope creates erosion - yes bolt 5. you can't contact the FA - try to gain consensus 6. What if the FA says no? - No bolting 7. What if it was done on gear but that gear just isn't up to your personal standards? - you mean like tied down hooks? Pretty sure that's no one's standard and gear has improved greatly so someone would have to have pretty wack standards to prefer older gear over newer gear. In the case of hooks, see above. ...


Morgan, Those are rational, logical "rules." I agree qualitatively with all of them. If everyone came together with their rules I believe (maybe naively) that a consensus can be reached. It has happened in other climbing communities so hopefully it can happen in CT. BTW I am actually not talking about "Burnt Beyond Recognition" at Firewall. I believe that there are other routes that were bolted there that are either the same route Nichols describes in his book or they are one or two feet away. Personally I don't have any strong feelings about the bolting there one way or the other. If anything it has only been improved and draws more climbers than it did without bolts. However, an argument can still be made that generally accepted climbing ethics were ignored whether the Town Council approved them or not. Most town council members don't even know what a bolt is.


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By Tradoholic
Dec 14, 2012

Jake Jones wrote:
Pardon me for saying so, but this seems highly hypocritical coming from you. I understand your perspective, and I think parts of it have merit. But for you to say this, insinuates that you're cool with any discipline of climbing when clearly you are not. You are a staunch supporter of anti-bolting sentiments- which also means you are rather wrapped up in how you do something, not to mention how other people do it as well. I don't really take issue with your opinion (unyielding as it may be), and I feel it is a valuable "other side" to the coin. I think everyone is entitled to their own stance and it's good to see someone that is passionate- as long as that stance isn't misrepresented.


I think you misinterpret but I understand why. In this scenario I am your oppressor. I'm just some guy on the internet and I've climbed at the crag(s) in question only once. So why even care about what I'm saying? I'm simply providing a different perspective. If people are concerned about what I or anyone else think about the way they climb, they have lost.

What is at stake and what I'm most concerned about is what happens to access at bolted crags. Regardless of the physical change bolting brings to the rock it brings other impact as well, not to mention maintenance. Mainly it will bring more people and with more people there are more accidents which in turn will bring more attention from authorities. This all has a broader not-so-easily measured "impact" on the area and climbing in general. In the context of the discussion and the OP, how many people have been hurt top-roping? Not many I presume.

In other words, climb as you please, fuck what other people think, but understand that any action has consequences and bolting these cliffs have positives and negatives for climbing as a whole.


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By Tradoholic
Dec 14, 2012

CaptainMo wrote:
1. it was done on hooks - Yes bolt 2. the FA gives permission - Yes bolt 3. the gear "sucks" - no because there's gear 4. the toprope creates erosion - yes bolt 5. you can't contact the FA - try to gain consensus 6. What if the FA says no? - No bolting 7. What if it was done on gear but that gear just isn't up to your personal standards? - you mean like tied down hooks? Pretty sure that's no one's standard and gear has improved greatly so someone would have to have pretty wack standards to prefer older gear over newer gear. In the case of hooks, see above. Re Grid Bolting: Well honestly the place hasn't been grid bolted so if we couldn't resist grid bolting, wouldn't it be that way now several years later? Also if it was grid bolted why are a handful of the routes MIXED routes requiring some gear to prevent ground fall potential? I can think of at least 5 routes with bolts that also need trad gear. Re you want bolt everything so that you can "lead" it without any risk: Ha don't make me laugh - this statement pretty much tells me you haven't climbed any of the newer routes there and you're taking a very generalized and misconceived trad view. There's plenty of risk left in these routes, 20 ft wippers, ground fall from 20ft etc. Most the guaranteed X/death factor has been removed yes.


Hey, I like most of this, it makes sense but how do you make sure these rules are followed?

However...#7, no I mean like "shitty" placements or you need ball-nuts and you don't have ball-nuts. There's plenty of gray area out there for people to make wiggle room.

"Grid bolting" isn't necessarily simply placing bolts every x amount of feet, it's an effect of excessive bolting. Before you know it the damn thing has been "grid bolted".

If your rationale for bolting a route is to make it "safer" and accessible for more people then how do you justify leaving "risk" on these routes? If you're going to bolt something, then just bolt it! Risk is entirely subjective and it seems to me that the bolters are making arbitrary decisions about what's acceptable and what's not, i.e telling people how they should climb something.


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By Mark Lewis
From Salt Lake City, Utah
Dec 14, 2012

Jake Jones wrote:
Pardon me for saying so, but this seems highly hypocritical coming from you. I understand your perspective, and I think parts of it have merit. But for you to say this, insinuates that you're cool with any discipline of climbing when clearly you are not. You are a staunch supporter of anti-bolting sentiments- which also means you are rather wrapped up in how you do something, not to mention how other people do it as well. I don't really take issue with your opinion (unyielding as it may be), and I feel it is a valuable "other side" to the coin. I think everyone is entitled to their own stance and it's good to see someone that is passionate- as long as that stance isn't misrepresented.


I agree.

The hypocrisy of many of Red Tagger's posts in this particular thread is blaring, making it difficult to get beyond the hypocritical, egotistical posts and actually take this debate seriously. Less spray and more rational arguments please; leave out as much hyperbole and contradicting statements as possible and your message will reach a wider audience who would be otherwise put off.

(I know, I know, you donít care what other people think, et al., yet your continual postings indicate otherwise. Please, if this area isnít your home-town climbing area, try not to dominate the debate. Doing so under that context is a bit disingenuous.)


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By Unassigned User
Dec 14, 2012

Red Tagger wrote:
Hey, I like most of this, it makes sense but how do you make sure these rules are followed? However...#7, no I mean like "shitty" placements or you need ball-nuts and you don't have ball-nuts. There's plenty of gray area out there for people to make wiggle room. "Grid bolting" isn't necessarily simply placing bolts every x amount of feet, it's an effect of excessive bolting. Before you know it the damn thing has been "grid bolted". If your rationale for bolting a route is to make it "safer" and accessible for more people then how do you justify leaving "risk" on these routes? If you're going to bolt something, then just bolt it! Risk is entirely subjective and it seems to me that the bolters are making arbitrary decisions about what's acceptable and what's not, i.e telling people how they should climb something.


For someone so concerned about overbolting and ethical bolting etc etc you sure do climb the fuck outta bolted climbs LOL!!! just look at your tick list lol


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By Unassigned User
Dec 14, 2012



here is One Eyed Jacks 5.11b a climb that you onsited, look at that crack right next to a bolt!


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By Unassigned User
Dec 14, 2012

BFAM is the only true sport climb at the Waterfall, and it's a good one at that. Find it by walking two minutes right from the main Amphitheater area and look for a left-leaning column with a line of bolts. The route face climbs up this corner and the face and arete to the left past nine bolts, ever steepening rock, and a crux by the last bolt. This is a great route and an excellent warmup for the harder lines at the crag.
Protection
9 draws.

the only true sport climb at this area and you of all people had to climb it!

You purist you !!!!

not that I'm saying you aren't an excellent climber, and I'm being sincere about that.


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By Unassigned User
Dec 14, 2012

Alas one of those cherished poorly protected trad climbs that you long for!

The Importance of Being Ernest 5.10c/d R

uuhhhhhhhhhhhhh you toproped it!


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By Unassigned User
Dec 14, 2012

New Light Waves 5.12b

now this one you did the FFA and I give you tons of credit for it, good lead. you should have your name put on the FFA for historic reference if nothing else.


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By Glenn Schuler
From Monument, Co.
Dec 14, 2012
A grey fox skull wedged in a crack 100' up on a FA I was working on - don't see that every day...

Hey look, Rhoads has a new leg humper.


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By J Q
Dec 14, 2012
Me again!

Red Tagger wrote:
Risk is entirely subjective and it seems to me that the bolters are making arbitrary decisions about what's acceptable and what's not, i.e telling people how they should climb something.



And you are doing the same but even more so. Remember: skipping a bolt goes against God's WILL!!! But forcing everyone else to climb like you is a good show of "ethics".

Nick is "THE" tactical, fascist, ethicist. He will be obeyed or face the consequences!

The out of touch punters are coming!!! Better start chopping.


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By Unassigned User
Dec 14, 2012

just demonstrating what a hypocrite he is...


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By Tradoholic
Dec 14, 2012

thefish wrote:
just demonstrating what a hypocrite he is...


Like I said boys, "climbing is climbing". I've TR'd more than just The Importance of Being Ernest too and I'm unashamed. I love sport climbing and if I recall correctly the "crack" on "One Eyed Jacks" is a flaring butthole and doesn't take gear but I'm sure I have clipped bolts next to a crack here and there, however I furrowed my brow while doing so.

Also like I said before, how about you all stop your whining and go bolt what you want to bolt already. KN is a whiner and you guys are whiners but at least KN put his money where his mouth was, so to speak.

Oh and Mark Lewis, don't take life too seriously, you will never get out alive.


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By roger fritz from rockford, IL
Dec 14, 2012
Wichita Mountains, Sunshine Wall

Maybe we could all be slightly different... just saying.

They all started turning on each other//you see, the poets thought the dancers were shallow // and the soldiers thought the poets were weak // and the elders thought the young ones as foolish // and the rich man never heard the blind man speak ...



city on the hill/casting crowns


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By Unassigned User
Dec 14, 2012

"I believe in Kn's philosophy but I sport climb"

-Red Tagger


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By Tradoholic
Dec 14, 2012

Red Tagger/Climbing Fascist/Trad Ninja/Ego Climber/Climbing Ethicist/Hypocritical Climber/Elenor/God of Climbing FOR PREZ-O-DENT of rock climbing! The streets will flow with the blood of the non-believers!


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By Unassigned User
Dec 14, 2012

don't forget toproper of the GODS LOL!


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