Route Guide - iPhone / Android - Partners - Forum - Photos - Deals - What's New
Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
Why Toproping?
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 2 of 7.  <<First   <Prev   1  2  3  4  5   Next>   Last>>
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
By Ed Wright
Dec 11, 2012
Magic Ed

I think if you actually went to Devil's Lake and spent a few days climbing there you would "see" the answer to your question, and accept the fact that top roping is a perfectly valid form of climbing.


FLAG
By Jon H
From Northern NJ
Dec 11, 2012
At the matching crux

TRmasta wrote:
-I would never compare MD to CT as far as rock goes, CTs worst crags are better than MDs best(Carderrock and Great Falls). I have lived in both places.


I take it you've never been to Harper's Ferry, Maryland Heights, The Narrows, etc. There's a whole lot more to MD than what sits within 20 minutes of DC.


FLAG
By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Dec 11, 2012
Stoked...

Jon H wrote:
I take it you've never been to Harper's Ferry, Maryland Heights, The Narrows, etc. There's a whole lot more to MD than what sits within 20 minutes of DC.


I'm sure there is but it likely doesn't hold a candle to the central CT climbing just as central CT climbing can't hold a candle to the Daks or the Whites...


FLAG
By Forestvonsinkafinger
From Iowa
Dec 11, 2012

Someone mentioned the environmental impact of the sport.  Well done, we need to take better ownership of not only the crag, but the far off lands where the resources to make our gear comes from:
Someone mentioned the environmental impact of the sport. Well done, we need to take better ownership of not only the crag, but the far off lands where the resources to make our gear comes from:


FLAG
By nicelegs
From Denver
Dec 11, 2012

Stick clip the first bolt, climb to the second, and clip the anchors. What was the point of all that?

I prefer to lead but when I see a fully bolted sport route that is 25' high, I just can't care.

A good painters pole or golf ball retriever is 16'-18' long. A typical climber's reach is 7-8' tall (distance your hands are above your head when standing on your toes and stretching up)

I say if a typical stick clip can clip the anchor, just put an anchor that is easier to snag with the stick and tr it. No leads shorter than 22'. Everything else in this thread is just people comparing different situations and thinking they are the same.


FLAG
By JCM
From Golden, CO
Dec 11, 2012

CaptainMo wrote:
the only other main factor about why TR'ing is so popular is the fear thing that others have mentioned. Folks are just less adventurous back here and mostly looking for fun activities with their family and friends.


With regards to this "fear thing", we've seen plenty of responses suggesting that people need to just sack up and lead these routes on gear. But do these routes (on CT Traprock, to be specific) generally have crack systems that take gear; is leading on gear a viable option? If these are unprotectable or barely-protected faces, the "man up and lead it" response is absurd; most sane people don't want to stick thier neck out that far in thier everyday climbing, and for good reason.


FLAG
By Haywood Jeublowme
From Cortez, CO
Dec 11, 2012
salty

I love it how it's always the trad climbers that are so "holier than thou". Would rather plug a piece on 10a and feel badass than whip on a 12 and actually push their physical limits..... don't see many boulderers or sport climbers talkin themselves up do you?


FLAG
By Tradoholic
Dec 11, 2012

Jon Moen wrote:
With regards to this "fear thing", we've seen plenty of responses suggesting that people need to just sack up and lead these routes on gear. But do these routes (on CT Traprock, to be specific) generally have crack systems that take gear; is leading on gear a viable option? If these are unprotectable or barely-protected faces, the "man up and lead it" response is absurd; most sane people don't want to stick thier neck out that far in thier everyday climbing, and for good reason.


Exactly, if they don't want to stick their neck out they should just TR it.


FLAG
By Pitty
From Marbach
Dec 11, 2012
My cool Elly....

Next question: Why do people climb, using a rope?


FLAG
By zenetopia
Dec 11, 2012

Next question: Why do people complain and argue about everything?


FLAG
By Eric Engberg
Dec 11, 2012

Haywood Jeublowme wrote:
I love it how it's always the trad climbers that are so "holier than thou". Would rather plug a piece on 10a and feel badass than whip on a 12 and actually push their physical limits..... don't see many boulderers or sport climbers talkin themselves up do you?


seems like someone is talking themselves up and making judgements


FLAG
By bearbreeder
Dec 11, 2012

again access issues aside it all comes down to fear ...

one interesting thing is that even some good UK climbers such as hazel findley (in the odessey) admit that the lack of bolts is one thing that is stopping her from pushing herself sometimes ... and james pearson admitted that when he went to the continent to sport climb he got his ass kicked, he found out he was basically a one dimensional weak climber by climbing grit all the time ....and that Caroline Ciavaldini more or less just started trad but as a sport weenie was able to onsight e5/e6/e7s ...

if the climb can be done "safely" on lead just lead it ... for those that say that leading on bolts is the same as TRing, then congratulations youre one of that small subset of the population that has no fear of falling ... even the best climbers have that natural fear and need to overcome it on lead ...

as to those who say they get more climbing in ... well thats yr choice but if its easy enough to do laps, its easy enough to lead quickly ... if i want laps ill lead it up the first time to set up the rope, and then possibly to one or two TR laps ...

climbing IMO is all about overcoming your irrational fear (rational fear is a different story) ... and you only do that by leading over and over again ... every "safe" climb that you can


FLAG
By Haywood Jeublowme
From Cortez, CO
Dec 11, 2012
salty

Eric Engberg wrote:
seems like someone is talking themselves up and making judgements


I love ALL types of climbing. Clipping bolts, clipping gear, swinging axes, kicking steps in the snow. Not talking myself up at all. I like cruising AND pushing myself. And yes, if you ask me, it ALWAYS seems to be the trad climbers that imply that their style is the best. It is simply one way to get to the top. Quit bitchin about style and go climb sumthin.


FLAG
By JCM
From Golden, CO
Dec 11, 2012

Red Tagger wrote:
Exactly, if they don't want to stick their neck out they should just TR it.


The absurd aspect of this sort of response is that one side is asking specific, pragmatic questions, and the other is responding with a stubborn generalized rhetoric.

Here is the basic flow:

- Someone notes that TRing is the norm at a certain crag, and that TRing is causing certain impact problems.

-The obvious solution to TR impacts is that people instead lead climbs.

-Good, this makes sense. Now the obvious question is whether these routes can be led as-is, on gear, or if addition of bolts would be neccesary to make this a pragmatic solution.

-The tradiban then responds that you should never add bolts, since if you can't lead on gear, then you can just TR. This takes us nowhere, or, more accurately, it takes us full circle, right back to where we started.


The majority of the responses to this thread have had nothing to do with the specifics of the OPs question, and have instead just been bullishly stubborn statements of an outdated, generalized dogma.


FLAG
By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Dec 11, 2012
Stoked...

Jon Moen wrote:
The absurd aspect of this sort of response is that one side is asking specific, pragmatic questions, and the other is responding with a stubborn generalized rhetoric. Here is the basic flow: - Someone notes that TRing is the norm at a certain crag, and that TRing is causing certain impact problems. -The obvious solution to TR impacts is that people instead lead climbs. -Good, this makes sense. Now the obvious question is whether these routes can be led as-is, on gear, or if addition of bolts would be neccesary to make this a pragmatic solution. -The tradiban then responds that you should never add bolts, since if you can't lead on gear, then you can just TR. This takes us nowhere, or, more accurately, it takes us full circle, right back to where we started. The majority of the responses to this thread have had nothing to do with the specifics of the OPs question, and have instead just been bullishly stubborn statements of an outdated, generalized dogma.


BAM! Well done... The pragmatic solution that seems obvious to most of us newer climbers are mixed lines with accessible TR anchors. By new I mean the last two decades. Unfort drilling a hole which can be patched is way worse in tradies minds then killing or harming living things (baffling honestly).


FLAG
By superkick
From West Hartford, CT
Dec 11, 2012
Free Solo up hitchcock gully WI3

maybe not everyone is itnerested in trad climbing, that risk prone, or can afford a trad rack?


do you have to trad climb to love the sport? I dont think so


FLAG
By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Dec 11, 2012
OTL

"Sport climbing is neither"


FLAG
By Tony Hawk
Dec 11, 2012

because its fun. not everyone needs to adhere to YOUR definition of climbing.

I climbed for a decade hardly ever leading once - including several big walls in Zion an Yosemite and many multi-pitch routes across the country. Could not have been happier! all the climbing...none of the stress. felt so good to be "inferior"


FLAG
By Ian Stewart
Dec 11, 2012

I don't really give a shit, since I climb every style I can. I'd prefer to lead, but I've never turned down a climb because it wasn't my preferred style of protection.

thefish wrote:
it also has to do with time. Most people have a limited amount of time to get in the maximum amount of climbing. Do you want to lead 2 or three climbs in an afternoon or do you want to climb the same routes 5 or 6 times on toprope? Not all of us quit work in the 70's to climb the same route 10,000 times.


Unless you're pushing grades and constantly hesitating (for fear of falling), leading a sport route takes only a few moments longer the same climb on TR. If anything, setting up a TR usually takes longer since you need to make that second trip to the top to set up the anchor anyways. I could cruise a dozen easy sport routes in a fraction the time that TRing the same climbs would take.


FLAG
By Tom Mulholland
From #1 Cheese Producing State!
Dec 11, 2012
Whiskey-a-Go-Go

Ed Wright wrote:
I think if you actually went to Devil's Lake and spent a few days climbing there you would "see" the answer to your question, and accept the fact that top roping is a perfectly valid form of climbing.


What Ed says.

Also, sometimes (though obviously not always) TR causes less environmental damage. Especially at Devils Lake, where many of the crags have trail access at the top. Actually, there are a bunch of crags that have top-level access, but not bottom-level access, so it's actually more environmentally sound to set a TR and rap in. And why would you want to permanently scar the rock with metal and holes if you don't have to?

And to reiterate, go climb at DL. Haven't found another place like it yet.


FLAG
By Unassigned User
Dec 11, 2012

Ian Stewart wrote:
I don't really give a shit, since I climb every style I can. I'd prefer to lead, but I've never turned down a climb because it wasn't my preferred style of protection. Unless you're pushing grades and constantly hesitating (for fear of falling), leading a sport route takes only a few moments longer the same climb on TR. If anything, setting up a TR usually takes longer since you need to make that second trip to the top to set up the anchor anyways. I could cruise a dozen easy sport routes in a fraction the time that TRing the same climbs would take.

but you couldn't cruise a dozen 5.11 trad routes in the same time which was my point in the post that you quoted. It was in response to a previous post which basically stated that we in CT should always go out and lead.

however I do agree with your post concerning TR vs sport routes

heck I want to bolt a bunch of routes in CT that can't be led on gear


FLAG
By Tradoholic
Dec 11, 2012

Bringing it back to the OP...

Austin Baird wrote:
Let me preface this by saying that I've done all my climbing out west and I've never really had to deal with access issues\landowner permissions\etc. so I don't have the perspective that others who DO deal with these issues have. That being said, I've followed the CT bolting controversy with a mixture of bemusement and confusion and I always enjoy watching people argue about Devil's Lake. My question isn't about lines that go on gear but instead about the "TR instead of sport" ethic in certain places. If land owners don't allow bolts or if the lines go on gear, I understand why nobody would bolt. But why would climbers rather toprope routes (that can't go on gear and that COULD be bolted and led) than lead them? Is it sheerly out of respect for the local ethics\history?


Some of it is about respect for the ethics/history but most of it is for the respect of nature and leaving as little trace as possible.

Austin Baird wrote:
In these areas, is it even true that this is still the prevailing ethic or are new climbers just bullied into accepting the status quo? I just want someone to help me understand why climbers will willingly toprope when there could be leads to be had. (And please don't turn this into a flamefest about how everyone wants to "gridbolt" all your local secret crags. It's an honest question. I feel that toproping is an inferior style to leading (either trad or sport) and I would never choose to TR something if I felt like it could be led instead.)


It appears your desire to lead something is purely egotistical and number chasing. People choose to TR because it's a safe way to climb something (just like sport climbing is a safe way to climb) and if the top is easily accessible to set a TR then why inflict permanent man made damage upon the rock for the only purpose of making a climber feel like they have climbed something in a way that makes them feel more badass?

Really, there are few climbing areas out there that fit the TR ethic. In most places the top isn't accessible to set a TR and doing so would cause more environmental harm then putting in some bolts. The crags in CT and DL are exceptions to this rule.

In sum I would rather TR a route in those places then bolt and lead it because it's safe way to climb and because I don't need to try and make my dick longer by adding in a few clips along the way to the top of a piece of rock.

As for my "sack up" comment, "leadable" is in the eye of the beholder. If you look hard enough and use a few techniques alot of things can go from unleadable and supposedly justifiably boltable to leadable on gear. The climbers at Devils Lake and I imagine in CT are perfectly happy to TR everything because it's just a safeway to climb there and they don't need to prove anything to anyone with the way they climb something. Some choose the personal challenge of leading those same TR climbs on gear but it's not about style, it's about the personal challenge.


FLAG
By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Dec 11, 2012
modern man

Tom Mulholland wrote:
What Ed says. Also, sometimes (though obviously not always) TR causes less environmental damage. Especially at Devils Lake, where many of the crags have trail access at the top. Actually, there are a bunch of crags that have top-level access, but not bottom-level access, so it's actually more environmentally sound to set a TR and rap in. And why would you want to permanently scar the rock with metal and holes if you don't have to? And to reiterate, go climb at DL. Haven't found another place like it yet.


I think CT and WI have many things in common besides MAYBE CT has more areas all over the state. Devils Lake-Ragged Mtn...

So not many people have climbed Devils Lake without actually living near there. Ragged is the same. Toproping is the norm at Devils Lake, same at Ragged. Sure there are good leads at both places but 90-99% of the cliff ascents are probably TR if you consider even the good cracks get led once for every 10 TRs. Most, if not all of CTs cliff trails are on top and bottom because you always approach from the bottom and walk past the cliff and up the nearest available drainage to get to the golden tree that is going to get wrapped by some rope yet again. I can see and always have seen similarities with the two states.

I have to admit I TR stuff when I'm scared of embarrassing myself/making my belayer sit through living hell with an ultra long hangdog session. I TR when the rope is set up on something I cant lead because the pro makes it an R/X rated route. I TR when I follow my partner. As much as I can in CT I see a route I can lead with a TR on it already I'm psyched cause I can pull the rope, lead it and have a SWEET anchor already built that I can lower on. I have not wrapped a tree for TRing for 2 years or more.

Many people have left CT for a better rock climbing scene, many people have left WI for the same reason. Maybe I generalize too much but wouldnt these states be better off keeping many of these climbers around by challenging their skills on the rock instead of boring them to death with the same old TRs?

now flame away!


FLAG
By Austin Baird
From SLC, Utah
Dec 11, 2012
Me scaring years off my mom's life

Red Tagger wrote:
It appears your desire to lead something is purely egotistical and number chasing.


What you just said is that there's no greater satisfaction out of lead climbing than top roping. Your argument is that ANYONE who chooses to lead ONLY does it out of ego or number chasing (which are the same thing) and that there are no valid reasons for sport climbing. I don't have a response to this; it doesn't deserve one. I just wanted to clarify and make sure I understood your point. (PS - did I say ANYWHERE in my post what grade I climbed or that I was interested in leading in order to push my numbers? If you can point out a single statement that could plausibly be construed as "number chasing", I'll send you a six pack of your favorite soda (I'm Mormon). It was an honest question - there's no need to be a dick about it.)

Red Tagger wrote:
People choose to TR because it's a safe way to climb something (just like sport climbing is a safe way to climb)


That's why people sport climb? Because it's "safe"? Is it possible that people sport climb because some outstanding routes are impossible to climb on gear? Are people who climb both trad and sport in need of your advice to "sack up"? Is it possible that people sport climb because they enjoy focusing on the movement trying to climb harder and not because they're a bunch of nancy-boys who shake in the face of danger? You take an awfully myopic view of climbing. You also injected some pretty harsh words into an otherwise sincere discussion.


FLAG
By JCM
From Golden, CO
Dec 11, 2012

A bit of a summary of my two earlier posts:

There are good reasons to bolt a TR route, and good reasons to leave it unbolted. This is not specific to a given route or area, but just in general:

Good Reasons to Bolt a TR Route (note that these reasons assume that the route cannot be reasonably lead on gear):

1. Setting up TR's impacts the top of the cliff. Bolting routes for leading and lowering-off discourages (or eliminates) clifftop traffic, preventing clifftop erosion, tree damage, etc.

2. Many routes are not very practical to TR. Camhead noted a few examples, including crags where the clifftop is hard to access (Smith, etc) or routes that are way too steep to reasonabbly TR. Really, these two attributes are true of most good sport climbing areas, when it comes down to it. This is basically why sport climbing exists; it lets you climb overhung faces that cannot be Tr'd and cannot be led on gear.

3. Leading is more fun, interesting and exciting than TRing. Unlike what Redtagger said, this is not about ego; it is about enjoyment. Even on a closely bolted rotue with permadraws, the lead evokes a different sensation than the TR. People like sport climbing, and generally would prefer a bolted lead over a TR.

4. Learning and beginner leaders. For easy TR crags, the presence of some bolted routes provides beginners with a chance to learn to lead.


Good reasons not to bolt an existing TR route:

1. Rules against bolting. This is the most obvious one. If the land manager says no bolts, then we don't get to bolt. Simple and obvious. That said, if the community thinks that some bolts would be appropiate, and presents a united front to get bolting permits approved, then rules can be changed. Recent provisions allowing for bolting permits int he Flatirons, following a 20-year bolting ban, are an obvoius example.

2. Sketchy access. Even if bolting is not officially against the rules, sometimes it is wise to avoid excess bolting to keep climbing under the radar. An alternative solution here is minimal bolting and well camoflauged bolts.

3. Deference to history. Gritstone comes to mind. The place has a very strong no-bolt ethic, and that is what gives the crags their character. Might as well keep it that way.

4. Finding lots of adventure on little rocks. Following up on the gritstone example, how do you keep you shitty 45-foot tall crag interesting? Make the routes exceptonally bold to lead. The Buttermilks are a simular situation; if the Peabody Boulders had been bolted, they would be short, mediocre sport routes. Unbolted, they are famous highballs. In these cases, leaving route sunbolted makes them better.

5. Routes that could be reasonably lead on gear. Duh; don't bolt trad routes-- the most basic ethic in American climbing. By "reasonably", I am not refering to the absurd Ken Nichols-style leads, involving multiple ropes and skyhooks for pro. "Reasonable" and "safe" are fuzzy definitions, and are decided based on local standards.


So to return to the OP, the reason that TR-crags exist is that, on the balance, the "Don't Bolt" reasons outweigh the "Do Bolt" reasons at those local areas.


FLAG


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 2 of 7.  <<First   <Prev   1  2  3  4  5   Next>   Last>>