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Why is Trad so much more difficult in grade than sport?

Original Post
Joe Garibay · · Ventura, Ca · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 86

I feel like I push past my friends often in the sports I do. Bit I know that I'm certainly below so many others. I've always had a fascination with heights, so being on a high wall doesn't affect me at all. I know I'm safe and secure so I'm comfortable. It's my impression that the biggest difference in trad to sport is ones fear. Is this the case, or is there more? I'm very green to trad climbing so I don't know a lot of what I'm saying. But if you know your gear placements are solid and you're prepared for a fall when you feel it, why would a 5.8, for instance, be considered as difficult as a 5.10+ in sport? Is the grading just different? What are the factors? Maybe I'm not worthy of informative responses yet, but one day I will be. I'm consumed by this sport and there's no looking back. I'm eager to learn to no end. Please fill me up with knowledge and your thoughts. If it's a mental barrier, mine doesn't seem to exist. I look forward to scaring the shit out of myself someday.

Shelton Hatfield · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 650

5.10 is 5.10 is 5.10. Although different climbing areas fluctuate with ratings a bit, it should all feel about the same. Perhaps you are comparing techniques which you have practiced different amounts? Crack vs. face, slab vs. steep, etc.

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

Fiddling with gear and stopping to place pro takes additional strength and time, as well as trusting your own placements, increases the fear, in my opinion. Also, there are more route-finding difficulties in trad, as compared to looking for the next bolt. It's all so stressful! More fear and stress = more difficulty.

Joe Garibay · · Ventura, Ca · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 86

Got it! Seems insurance is the factor for me. I do love multipitched routes

KyleT · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 5

I have to agree, 5.10 is a 5.10 sport or trad, what you might find is most of the classic trad climbing around is "old school" and the grades tend to be a little more stiff. Also, placing gear takes more time and patience than clipping bolts, which can sometimes make the route feel harder to lead.

Joe Garibay · · Ventura, Ca · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 86

Haha. Indurance. Not insurance. But that might help too

Bill Czajkowski · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 20

How much do you know about the reliability of trad gear?

If you knew more, would you have more or less doubts?

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

Fear and climbing with all that crap hanging off you, though if you do it regularly they both should diminish some.

Greg Barnes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 2,060

Lots of factors…here's my 2 cents on a few of them:

- "easy" trad routes (up to 5.10) are often technically much more difficult than sport routes at the same rating. Slabby feet, funky movement, etc.
- "harder" trad routes (5.11 & up) are often similar or even easier technically than harder sport routes - the higher trad rating is often due to fiddly gear and the route being much harder to lead than follow or TR
- modern gym-trained climbers are often much stronger at steep face climbing than climbers were in the past. This means that a 5.11 sport route may have no moves technically harder than an (often slabby) 5.8 trad route, but when the 5.11 was put up people weren't hanging out all day on overhung gym routes, so now the 5.11 seems "fair for the grade" but the 5.8 seems "sandbagged"

Personally I've never really understood the huge discrepancies in many folks' stated trad vs. sport abilities, but then again I've never seen much difference in my own climbing, I top out at the same rating whether it's trad, sport, or bouldering. And I started climbing on cracks & slabs so I never had to transition from gym/face climbing. And I don't have much fear of heights, that probably helps!

Also I know way too much about bolts to really trust them much more than trad gear...

Michael Douglas · · Yucaipa, CA · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 40

It really comes down to the rock formations, the style of movement they require, and the tradition of the people who set the routes. As I continue to push my trad grade, a solid 5.10 hand or finger jam can begin to feel far more secure than a crimper in that same grade. Also, the "tradition" of "trad" is highly engrained to be a little sandbagged with the measure being a 1950 5.10 (depending on the location) which unfortunately doesn't lend to stratifying the grades. It ultimately forces you to know thyself, your abilities and limits, as trad does not warrant as much hang dog projecting as sport; plus your harness weights 10-15lbs depending on the route. However, don't let the fact that there are bolts make you think that the climb is a "sport" climb. Do some 5.8 "sport" on weeping wall (slab climbing) on suicide in idyllwild and that will get you shaking as much if not more than harder trad climbs. It is always important to learn the tradition of an area and the people who set the routes before pushing grade in a new place; you can sort of assess by climbing some simpler climbs 2 grades below your comfort grade.

Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

If you started in the gym, that's face climbing. So you go out on to sport routes and do something very similar. When you climb trad there is a need for gear placements, so routes follow cracks. Climbing cracks of different sizes, or between crack systems, or dihedral often requires different technique than used in the gym or on sport routes. It's not harder for the same grade, just different. If all you'd ever climbed was hand cracks, face climbing on a sport route might seem very difficult at the same grade. That's the physical stuff.

The mental stuff (in my experience) is this: In sport, you clip a bolt, then focus on making the moves to the next bolt so you can clip that. The bolt gives a feeling of security. You can usually clearly see the next bolt from the one you are at; you have a target destination. Now really every bolt should be inspected as you don't know its condition til you look at it. From pictures I've seen, sometimes you can't even tell by looking. But the chances are you can hang a pickup off of it and psychologically, you get from one safe place to the next. Well with trad you don't just have to find the next place to set gear, you have to pick the right piece to set, then place it and place it well, before you can clip to it. Then you set off from your safe point, not knowing where the next one will be, but knowing that it's in you to find it and make it. Some trad routes wander a lot too, so you can't see the route ahead of you.

Now imagine you're 3 pitches up, getting pumped whilst trying to use a technique you really haven't practiced too much, out of sight of your partner, running it out over a less than idea fallzone because you can't find a good gear placement, and worrying about your last piece because you know you set it well...but what if you didn't, what if you missed something or it's walked or shifted or pulled out?

That's why it feels harder to me.

Michael Douglas · · Yucaipa, CA · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 40
Mathias wrote: Now imagine you're 3 pitches up, getting pumped whilst trying to use a technique you really haven't practiced too much, out of sight of your partner, running it out over a less than idea fallzone because you can't find a good gear placement, and worrying about your last piece because you know you set it well...but what if you didn't, what if you missed something or it's walked or shifted or pulled out? That's why it feels harder to me.
Perfect description!
Joe Garibay · · Ventura, Ca · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 86

Michael, Idyllwild, love that place! I'm getting on that route soon. Sounds perfect. Mathias, good shit. Thanks to all you guys. Getting hungry. Early morning echo for me Saturday.

Patrick Shyvers · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10

Unless you're a gear master, IMO you can just push sport harder. Aside from fear, haven't you been on a sport route that was so hard for you, that if you couldn't clip & clip within five seconds you would fall? Now imagine if you had to slot a fiddly nut or pick the right size cam instead of clip a bolt. It's not about fear, you just can't do it!

Personally as I am not yet a gear master, I like to climb trad several grades down so that I can devote more of my mind to placing gear I can trust and perfecting my skill. It's much easier to focus on those things when I am comfortable on the route.

Joe Garibay · · Ventura, Ca · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 86

Fifi Patrick?!

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Some things have been said. But I'll elaborate slightly. Most of what I'm saying applies to what Greg called "easy trad" face climbing, done in classical style, which means not previewing on rappel and preprotecting. Trad crack climbing is hard for sport climbers for another reason, which is that they typically get little or no practice in the necessary techniques.

1. You have to place gear. This means finding the right spots and selecting the right piece. You may have to do this in very strenuous and/or very insecure positions, because that's where the opportunities are. And then the gear you can get in may not be very good. Moreover, you typically can't tell until you get there what size gear you'll need and where it will go.

2. There may be things to hit. The terrain isn't continually overhanging---you won't be falling into space.

3. There may not be gear. Either the cracks aren't there, or you used up the sizes you need.

4. It may not be clear where to go. Face climbing can be very devious and unobvious. Chalk, if present, can help but can also mislead.

All of this consumes energy---possibly a lot of energy---and that leaves diminished reserves for making hard moves.

But I think the main difference is risk. Risk, and the ability to perform competently in the face of it, is one of the defining characteristics of trad climbing. The route is not intrinsically safe in the way many bolted routes are, and even with a pile of gear at your disposal it may never be safe in the way bolted routes are. (There are, however, especially in Europe, some tremendously run-out bolted routes that deserve to be viewed more as trad climbs than sport climbs.)

You may not be able go up and work the moves, taking hangs and short falls, which means much more energy is invested in climbing up and down and trying to milk inadequate rests. And so the "same" 5.8, 5.9, or 5.10 moves are both mentally and physically harder than they would be in the sport context (not because the moves are harder but because the climber is more tired and can't necessarily just go for it), and that's why many climbers have a grade discrepancy.

Patrick Shyvers · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10
JoeGaribay wrote:Fifi Patrick?!
What is Fifi?
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

Its not "harder"

It just not your "style"

Many an old geezer out here can easily walk up a 5.10/11 crack but would flail on the equivalent sport grade if overhung

In some ways trad in squamish can be "easier" as its often lower angle than the equivalent sport climb, but might be more technical

;)

Joe Garibay · · Ventura, Ca · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 86

A fifi is an aid hook. When it gets rough placing gear, this could be used to help take some weight off

Gabe Schwartz · · Hope Valley · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 5

Cause it is scary as balls and placing gear often requires additional energy. Fear isn't a factor for everyone, but I bet it is for the majority of us. It is absolutely what holds me back in regards to trad vs sport.

~ Gabe

Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
JoeGaribay wrote:A fifi is an aid hook. When it gets rough placing gear, this could be used to help take some weight off
Still requires the ability to place good gear fast.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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