Where to tie a prusik on a rappel??

Hello all,
I recently was in a conversation regarding the best way to safely back-up a rappel (conversation started as a discussion regarding very small diameter ropes through an a.t.c.). I have always tied a prusik above my rappel device on the tensioned side of the rope; however, many folks tie it below the device on the brake side of the rope. I checked J. Long & C. Luebben's Advanced Rock Climbing, and they also advise that the prusik be tied on the brake end of the rope. My questions to the community are: where do you tie your prusik, and why?

I use a cordelette or sling to extend out my ATC to about eye level when rappelling, then attach the prusik below the device. Extending out the device ensures the prusik does not get snagged in the ATC, and having the prusik below the ATC lets you put both hands on the brake side of the rope if you choose, rather than having to keep one hand above the device to avoid getting snagged. This is how the setup was shown to me by a climber much more experienced than myself (like, 30 years more) when I started climbing and it is easy to control and inspect.

DEF wrote:I use a cordelette or sling to extend out my ATC to about eye level when rappelling, then attach the prusik below the device. Extending out the device ensures the prusik does not get snagged in the ATC, and having the prusik below the ATC lets you put both hands on the brake side of the rope if you choose, rather than having to keep one hand above the device to avoid getting snagged. This is how the setup was shown to me by a climber much more experienced than myself (like, 30 years more) when I started climbing and it is easy to control and inspect.

+1. I also rig my rappel this way.

I use 4' nylon sling with a overhand knot in the middle to extend the rappel, then attach prussik/autoblock to leg loop with a locker. The extension is for ease of rappel. It also allows for redundancy when clipping in and out of the anchors on each rappel. The prussik should always go below the atc, that way you are using the mechanical advantage of being in the braking plane of the atc.

TomCaldwell wrote:then attach prussik/autoblock to leg loop with a locker.

I attach the prusik to my belay loop, I was told leg loops should never be used...the belay loop is much sturdier should your weight fall on the prusik in an accident (although I'm not entirely sure how this might happen) either way.. I was told no leg loop!

When I was in Search and Rescue, I was always told to tie the prusik above (tension side) your device and the other end to your harness at your tie-in point

DEF wrote:I use a cordelette or sling to extend out my ATC to about eye level when rappelling, then attach the prusik below the device. Extending out the device ensures the prusik does not get snagged in the ATC, and having the prusik below the ATC lets you put both hands on the brake side of the rope if you choose, rather than having to keep one hand above the device to avoid getting snagged. This is how the setup was shown to me by a climber much more experienced than myself (like, 30 years more) when I started climbing and it is easy to control and inspect.

+1 For this. This was the way I was also shown by a much more experienced climber than myself. Also Climbing magazine had an article about this a few months ago.

Rappel Setup

Ben Warner wrote: I have always tied a prusik above my rappel device on the tensioned side of the rope; however, many folks tie it below the device on the brake side of the rope.

Ty Meadows wrote: When I was in Search and Rescue, I was always told to tie the prusik above (tension side) your device and the other end to your harness at your tie-in point

Imagine you're on a free-hanging rappel and you loosen your grip on the prusik-above-the-device for just an instant. It locks up like it's supposed to. Now what? Think about it.

It doesn't even have to be free-hanging for a total cluster-fuck -- just steep enough that you can't get your body weight off the now fully locked prusik.

DEF wrote: I attach the prusik to my belay loop, I was told leg loops should never be used...the belay loop is much sturdier should your weight fall on the prusik in an accident (although I'm not entirely sure how this might happen) either way.. I was told no leg loop!

You should attach the autoblock/prusik to your belay loop as long as you are extending the belay device with a sling through both your leg loops and waist (like you tie in). That way there is redundancy should either fail. If you rap directly off your belay loop then you should have the autoblock/prusik attached to your leg loop. That way there is redundancy should your belay loop fail, e.g. Todd Skinner. There are some newer harneses with quick release leg loop buckles that reportedly can come undone when pulled in the direction that a autoblock/prusik might exert. So obviously you don't want to connect to the leg loop with those. Bottom line run a sling through your leg loop and waist, tie an overhand knot in it, connect your rap device to this and connect your autoblock/prusik to the belay loop. This is the most redundant hence safest method.

Richard Radcliffe wrote: Imagine you're on a free-hanging rappel and you loosen your grip on the prusik-above-the-device for just an instant. It locks up like it's supposed to. Now what? Think about it. It doesn't even have to be free-hanging for a total cluster-fuck -- just steep enough that you can't get your body weight off the now fully locked prusik.

Its a pretty easy fix if you practice it. Just tie off your belay device, put 2 or 3 wraps around one foot and stand up, unweighting your prussik, untie your belay device and continue on your way.

I also do similar things to what a lot of folks say here. I take a triple length sling, double it and girth hitch to my harness. Tie an overhand halfway out and clip my ATC on my harness side of the knot (extending it). I tie a autoblock/kleimheist below attached to my belay loop. Then with the tail above that over hand knot I can use that for clipping into anchors while still on rappell. Works well, I can take a picture if it'd help you Ben.

Brian wrote: You should attach the autoblock/prusik to your belay loop as long as you are extending the belay device with a sling through both your leg loops and waist (like you tie in). That way there is redundancy should either fail. If you rap directly off your belay loop then you should have the autoblock/prusik attached to your leg loop. That way there is redundancy should your belay loop fail, e.g. Todd Skinner. There are some newer harneses with quick release leg loop buckles that reportedly can come undone when pulled in the direction that a autoblock/prusik might exert. So obviously you don't want to connect to the leg loop with those. Bottom line run a sling through your leg loop and waist, tie an overhand knot in it, connect your rap device to this and connect your autoblock/prusik to the belay loop. This is the most redundant hence safest method.

• Confused* Dont want to be a jerk but I really didn't follow that...

With a sling or cordelette I extend my ATC through my tie in points, not belay loop. You should never rap off your belay loop (you wouldnt fall on it on lead so why rap off it) Then I attach the prusik to my belay loop, being much stronger and sturdier than a leg loop. Very confused about the "as long as you are extending the belay device with a sling through both your leg loops and waist" Maybe thats not what you meant by that, but this sounds far from "most redundant hence safest method" The prusik is not there to catch you in the event your harness fails in some way, it is in place in case your hands come off the brake.

First, I usually try to have my rappel device extended away from my harness, i have a sterling chain reactor. i then use a autoblock/pemberthy type hitch with a small cordlette on the brake hand end of the rope, and attach to my harness with locker on my leg loop. When I rappel, I hold my brake hand on the knot as I rappel, so if I let go ( accidentally or inetntionally) the knot engages. Thats how I was taught on my NOLS course, and it has done me well ever since.

To add to the point about being in a cluster f***, I always carry a spare prussik loop for a situation like this in case I need to ascend a foot or two

So that is a couple votes for attaching the prusik to the leg loop rather than belay loop, I've only been climbing for a couple years, can anybody else chime in on this? I've always been told never to use the leg loop.

Wehling wrote: Its a pretty easy fix if you practice it. Just tie off your belay device, put 2 or 3 wraps around one foot and stand up, unweighting your prussik, untie your belay device and continue on your way. I also do similar things to what a lot of folks say here. I take a triple length sling, double it and girth hitch to my harness. Tie an overhand halfway out and clip my ATC on my harness side of the knot (extending it). I tie a autoblock/kleimheist below attached to my belay loop. Then with the tail above that over hand knot I can use that for clipping into anchors while still on rappell. Works well, I can take a picture if it'd help you Ben.

+1

Mark Cushman wrote:Tie an autoblock (not prusik) on the brake side attached to your leg loop. climbinglife.com/tech-tips/… Extending the device is OK in some circumstances (rapping with a haulbag or an injured person) but have you ever tried "jugging" back up the line when you need some extra tension? It's near impossible with the belay device at your chin.

+1 for an autoblock, one must get his or her knots correct. I use an autoblock, not a prussik

When I use a prusik for rappelling purposes, I attach it to my leg loop. Its below the ATC, manipulated by my brake hand, and short enough that it won't get sucked into the device. IMO it is there should I need to stop mid-rappel or in case I get knocked the heck out or something similar. It not meant to keep me from rapping of the end because that's why we tie knots into the ends of the rope.

I used some webbing to reinforce my belay loop. I don't think the forces involved in rappelling are going to break my belay loop, much less an additional loop of webbing,but that's just me.

It's fine to attach the prussik to your leg loop. (EDIT: For "double back" style buckles. I have no experience with "quick release ones, and might never.) It will never take your full weight anyways (unless your belay loop somehow fails, but I'm comfortable with those odds). The prussik on the brake side acts just like your hand - hence the nickname for the backup, "third hand".

ccerling wrote: +1 For this. This was the way I was also shown by a much more experienced climber than myself. Also Climbing magazine had an article about this a few months ago. Rappel Setup

Same here. keep it below the device, and popular opinion also says attach to belay loop, not to leg loop as often taught. I once did it above the belay device and it caught me full weight , half way down a flowing waterfall where I hung for 5 minutes before I could get the prussik unjammed and unweighted. that sucked as it was on a very wet ice climb.

To clarify from my technical rescue training/experience:
The prusik system is called a conditional self belay (CSB).
ALWAYS attach a prusik on the brake hand side never on the tension side as it will lock when weighted and minding/breaking the prusik is much more difficult under tension.
A two wrap prusik is adequate for controlling most single person rappels.
Extending the rappel device away from your body with a short lanyard off of a belay loop is an acceptable practice and helpful to eliminate the probability that the prusik will bind in the rappel device.
It is OK to rappel off of your belay loop as it is full strength and the forces generated in a rappel should always be far lower than that of arresting a lead fall which a belay loop frequently holds independently.
(If you're worried about the strength of your belay loop buy a new harness!!)
I attach my CSB to my leg loop using a locking biner. The leg loop is full strength on most harnesses.
The CSB is a great tool that can save your life if you loose control of the rappel. Every climber should have one and be familiar with its operation!

Chris Drover wrote:It's fine to attach the prussik to your leg loop...

Brian mentioned it above but it bears repeating: clipping to the leg loop can be problematic with some harnesses, unless care is taken with how it is attached.

See here: alpineinstitute.blogspot.co…

DEF wrote: ...I extend my ATC through my tie in points, not belay loop. You should never rap off your belay loop (you wouldnt fall on it on lead so why rap off it)

Petzl and Black Diamond both recommend belaying and rappelling from the belay/rappel loop. Care to explain why you disagree?*

http://www.petzl.com/en/node/9740
blackdiamondequipment.com/u…

* edited to remove bitchy tone

The concern with using the leg loop for the third hand came about from Jim Ratz's accident. If you're just rapping, it's not a big deal to use your leg loop. But if you're working on the wall, like installing an anchor and shifting your body around; you'd rather have the belay loop as your third hand (while extending/cow-tailing your device with some type of sling or cord) as this config won't move the hitch into your device even though you might move your legs around/lift legs/step up. There's more of a write-up in the ANAM, should be '05 I think.

Just something to think about. Like I said, if just rappin, using a third hand anywhere isn't that big a deal as long as you don't suck the hitch into the rap device; most the time, you're handling the ropes, using the hitch to untangle/undo snags, and/or transition into the next anchor. I don't see that my legs really come to be an issue. If I'm not the first on rap, I'll just freehand it anyway.

Another thing I noticed about position, if you use the third hand below the device, the device needs to have sufficient friction on its own otherwise you could end up locking a hitch in a position below the device and you end up getting trapped more in your own system than the hitch getting locked if it were above the device. Devices as simple as the ATC/tubes are fine, this concern is more to the large ring of the 8.