Mountain Project Logo

Where to get glue for bolts in Denver?

Original Post
Kade · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2014 · Points: 0

We discovered some awesome climbs on family-owned land, and we're trying to set some permanent anchors for top roping in sandstone (there's a really great walk-up, and we're hoping to take some beginning climbers in my family up these routes). We want to use glue-ins because the rock is somewhat soft, but I can't figure out where to get the glue. I know you can get cartridge glues at Home Depot and such, but because we're not looking to set a lot of bolts, we were planning to use SS threaded rod and capsules (set the proper way with a drill).

Anyone in the Denver area know where to get capsule glues (Hilti HVU, Powers Chem-Stud, etc)?

Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880

Hilti has an outlet on Stapleton Drive North

jasoncm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2012 · Points: 30

Don't use capsules they are junk. Epoxy anchoring glue is the way to go, polyester if your cheap. Don't use glue in threaded rod, get some proper ring bolts or make some U-bolts.

Not trying to offend but hope some one who is only top roping has the experience to safely place bolts.

Cheers

Jason

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
jasoncm wrote:Don't use capsules they are junk. Epoxy anchoring glue is the way to go, polyester if your cheap. Don't use glue in threaded rod, get some proper ring bolts or make some U-bolts. Not trying to offend but hope some one who is only top roping has the experience to safely place bolts. Cheers Jason
Rubbish.
jasoncm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2012 · Points: 30
Jim Titt wrote: Rubbish.
Please explain...
Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

The capsules are fine, but you have to follow the instructions and mix the epoxy by attaching the rod to the drill and spinning the whole thing. Doing it by hand is insufficient. This is why some installations in the past were sub standard.

Kade · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2014 · Points: 0
jasoncm wrote:Don't use capsules they are junk. Epoxy anchoring glue is the way to go, polyester if your cheap. Don't use glue in threaded rod, get some proper ring bolts or make some U-bolts. Not trying to offend but hope some one who is only top roping has the experience to safely place bolts. Cheers Jason
I think I was a little unclear. We have a lot of outdoor sport experience, and some outdoor trad, as well as years of indoor gym. We're trying to leave the routes alone as much as possible, but want to put some top rope anchors in for some less experienced family members. Hence, the question.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
jasoncm wrote: Please explain...
I can´t, you only lead 5.10......
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Kade wrote:We discovered some awesome climbs on family-owned land, and we're trying to set some permanent anchors for top roping in sandstone (there's a really great walk-up, and we're hoping to take some beginning climbers in my family up these routes). We want to use glue-ins because the rock is somewhat soft, but I can't figure out where to get the glue. I know you can get cartridge glues at Home Depot and such, but because we're not looking to set a lot of bolts, we were planning to use SS threaded rod and capsules (set the proper way with a drill). Anyone in the Denver area know where to get capsule glues (Hilti HVU, Powers Chem-Stud, etc)?
There are three sorts of resin capsules:-

Spin to set.
Spin to hold.
Hammer to hold.

Spin to set was the older system where the anchor had to be rotated at speed to create enough frictional heat to cure the resin, this system is nowadays only available in 35mm or larger for mining application.
Spin to hold is the common system nowadays where you hammer and rotate to mix the resin and then wait until it cures. 40 turns is the normal figure to work on but they function with less, to hammer in and twist using a normal hammer is perfectly adequate but a bit of speed is required, they set in a few minutes.
Hammer to hold you just drive the anchor in and wait for the cure, these are a new development and I´ve never done any testing on them.
The advantage of capsules is they generally give stronger pull-out than any other system since the rotating (and the thinner resin) cleans the dust better out of the hole by mixing it into the resin and ensure the bolt is properly coated, the glass form the capsule and the aggregate used actualy scratches the stainless steel and gives the best possible bond to the anchor as well. Naturally you don´t have any problems with incorrect resin/hardener either nor buy a specialisted injection system.

The downsides are maybe price though this is dropping rapidly and finding anchors which are compatible in length with the capsule volume, we make bolts with different lengths than usual to cope with this but if you buy a stud/capsule system from Powers or whoever then this is sorted for you anyway.

The capsules normally contain either vinylester or epoxyacrylate resin which are very similar and there is no real difference in our application, I´m not aware of any of the "normal" suppliers who use polyester or epoxy though these are available industrially.

We sell a fair few anchor systems using this as they are excellent for limited-number bolting, fast curing and more tolerant of crap rock which is hard to clean propperly like really soft sandstone so good for alpine routes, rescue teams and slack-liners.

1/2" X 4" in crap rock will generally be plenty though it depends on how crap it is!
jasoncm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2012 · Points: 30

What about the downside that you can't use them on ring bolts or u-bolts? Why waste your time on glue in threaded rod and hangers,when u can do it properly.

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
jasoncm wrote:What about the downside that you can't use them on ring bolts or u-bolts? Why waste your time on glue in threaded rod and hangers,when u can do it properly.
Normal P/Buhler type bolts are what is normally used.
U bolts, who´d use them by choice?
Cor · · Sandbagging since 1989 · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 1,445

I have not drilled U bolt glue ins, but it seems like that would be a pain in the ass to drill two perfect spaced + angled holes, compared to one... I missing something Jason?

jasoncm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2012 · Points: 30

Jim - how do you hammer a capsule with a buhler bolt?

U bolts are easy to install and easy to make. Whilst probably not as strong as other types of bolts I much prefer them than the spinning/rusty mank I climbed on throughout the US.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Cor wrote:I have not drilled U bolt glue ins, but it seems like that would be a pain in the ass to drill two perfect spaced + angled holes, compared to one...
It's actually quite easy if you know what you are doing. I have installed numerous U bolts and I dont find it hard at all. As with anything, it just takes practice to learn how to get the holes to align.
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
jasoncm wrote:Whilst probably not as strong as other types of bolts
U bolts are among the strongest bolts available. It's not hard to get 40kN out of 3/8" 304SS stock in hard rock with a U bolt.
jasoncm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2012 · Points: 30


U-bolts


Australian rock has plenty of them and I bet they will still be serviceable for a long long time. Plus they are very cheap to make. Cutting one leg shorter than the other helps mark the second hole.
Cor · · Sandbagging since 1989 · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 1,445

Thanks.
So really it's just that the material (make your own bend..) is cheaper, but you have to drill two holes so more battery juice., and time... I know it's not hard to drill two holes in a good order, I do construction. Just curious otherwise.

As far as stronger, who cares? You would break your body longggg before these extra high ratings.

Jim seems like a pretty knowledgable guy, and he thinks different., so I am courious!

I would agree though that two glue holes are better than one as you have one backing up the other. Therefore if one glue fails, the other is holding, and you have the strength of the metal itself, which is also imbedded in the rock.. Still strong.

Am I missing anything else?

Cheers, C

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
jasoncm wrote:Jim - how do you hammer a capsule with a buhler bolt? U bolts are easy to install and easy to make. Whilst probably not as strong as other types of bolts I much prefer them than the spinning/rusty mank I climbed on throughout the US.
Just hit them and turn them like any single shaft bolt, a lot of the original bolts from Oscar Buhler were fitted this way anyway. The hole needs to be big enough to turn them but the standard hole is usually enough. For bolts with an interefence fit like ours you need a bigger hole than normal but we also make
single-shaft bolts specifically for this, same as Fixe, Raumer etc do.
U-bolts can be o.k but often aren´t, getting good glue coverage on the shafts has always been a problem. They are attractive for the home-builder but unnatractive for manufacturers as they generally need more work to make and you still end up with a weaker bolt than you get using the same amount of material. Getting enough leg seperation in softer rock is another problem. The installer needs to drill two holes which takes more battery power which doesn´t help.
There are rather too many bad U-bolts out there for many peoples taste, mainly because they are so easy to make and most home-builders don´t go through the testing that a commercial certified product would. Mostly they work but sometimes they don´t!
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Cor wrote:Thanks. So really it's just that the material (make your own bend..) is cheaper, but you have to drill two holes so more battery juice., and time... I know it's not hard to drill two holes in a good order, I do construction. Just curious otherwise. As far as stronger, who cares? You would break your body longggg before these extra high ratings. Jim seems like a pretty knowledgable guy, and he thinks different., so I am courious! I would agree though that two glue holes are better than one as you have one backing up the other. Therefore if one glue fails, the other is holding, and you have the strength of the metal itself, which is also imbedded in the rock.. Still strong. Am I missing anything else? Cheers, C
The problem is getting the morter to spread into the grooves or threads in the bolt which is all that holds them in,as you can´t twist the bolt as it goes in the morter flows past and the holding power is very unreliable and you need considerably more skills to get good results. You can make the grooves so the morter flows correctly but this isn´t for the home builder for sure! We´ve made some on special order but they still involve more work for less bolt.
They fail on one leg first so they are weaker than a correponding Buhler design using the same amount of material.
On a good day they are plenty strong enough but on the other hand I know of a place where they come out at around 1kN which isn´t strong enough by any standard.
(I´m reasonably knowledgeable, I own one of the main companies in Europe specialising in glue-in bolts for climbers.)
Cor · · Sandbagging since 1989 · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 1,445

Yep that totally makes sense..
Spin it in, and it has grooves for the glue to catch and flow in.. Good bonding.
Push in smooth or non grooved or whatever you want to call the stock.. Not so good of bonding.
It seems like a crap shoot, how would you ever know the glue got completely around the whole unit, and not just on 1/2 or 3/4 of all sides or surfaces...

I knew Jim would have the answer! Thanks, as I had never thought of those points before. But I have never placed these. Mechanical works fine for the stone we climb on, and that's all I have experience with.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Cor wrote:It seems like a crap shoot, how would you ever know the glue got completely around the whole unit, and not just on 1/2 or 3/4 of all sides or surfaces...
You dont, and it is quite common to get air pockets in epoxy installations, especially when the bolt is installed perpendicular to gravity (or worse, overhead). I remember seeing an article about glue in bolts that were installed in test tubes. After the epoxy cured, they looked at the tube and then broke it apart to look for pockets in the epoxy. They found many of the installations had air bubbles that were not visible from the installer's point of view.

However, a good installer can install the bolt with minimal chance of a large air bubble. You just have to be careful. Dont slam the bolt in quickly, insert it slowly.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Sport Climbing
Post a Reply to "Where to get glue for bolts in Denver?"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.