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Where The Access Fund Should Put A Big CHUNK OF $$$$
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By GhaMby
From Heaven
Nov 14, 2013
Are you Chicken, or fishy?

From what I've been seeing lately the largest source of contention between land managers and climbers can solely be placed on the "big city gym climbers" going to the "real rock" and making a huge mess.

I know that this is not being caused by all city climbers, but mostly the young'ns that haven't been mentored like most older climbers were. More attention needs to be placed on providing direction and training directed towards the gym kids.

My suggestion would be to have the Access Fund provide classes at gyms through-out the country, possibly free with a membership at the gym and possibly done with volunteers.

The class would teach new climbers how to behave properly when they make their big trips to the "real rock". Some subjects/topics/ideas that need to be portrayed to these people would include the following

  • Poop in toilets/wag bags or BURY IT FAR AWAY FROM OTHERS
  • NO MUSIC AT CRAGS OR BOULDERS
  • Keep your dog under control-digging and chasing wildlife should not be accepted!
  • Be friendly towards other climbers-I'm talking to you Boulderites!!!
  • Take turns on boulder problems, just because this is your one trip to the Buttermilks for the year doesn't mean you should cut in front of the other 5 people that are trying the same problem as you.
  • Don't create new parking spots just because you can
  • When it's crowded maybe you don't need to do 5 TR laps on your warm up
  • When camping do not burn pallets, the locals "get to" clean up all those f-ing nails to prevent others from getting flats, especially since people move fire rings constantly...
  • Don't kick the sage brush just because you fell off of your project (that you're not even close to sending)
  • If you bring 20 people with you to the crag you best be willing to share your rope and or draws on the routes you and all your friends are hogging
  • Don't smoke weed in front of other peoples kids
  • Nobody wants to hear about how close you were to sending "the game", but if you want everyone to laugh at you behind your back, then go on buddy.


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By MC Poopypants
Nov 14, 2013
Dropping a deuce

My suggestion would be to close climbing gyms. They are having hugely negative impacts on the real climbing community (and bouldering). Capitalism and climbing don't mix well.


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Nov 14, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

No offense, but it seems like most of the list is common sense. People are assholes not because they don't know how to be courteous, but because they just don't give a shit. I do agree with the alleged source of most of the offenders. I think the best thing we can do is not be passive at crags, but also not be complete dicks when correcting someone either. Just talk to people. I'd be willing to bet that most of the problem could be fixed if people just stopped behaving so passive-aggressively. I'm not immune to this either. I'm just as guilty as anyone else. Throwing money at educating tardos that don't give a shit because they only take two trips outside a year and it's someone else's problem isn't going to do that much except waste valuable funds IMHO. YMMV


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By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Nov 14, 2013
Epic free solo with a pack on

White Privilege wrote:
My suggestion would be to close climbing gyms. They are having hugely negative impacts on the real climbing community (and bouldering). Capitalism and climbing don't mix well.


I'm with you on this one, to a degree. Capitalism is already, and always will be, rampant in climbing/outdoors. Big companies make climbing gear (BD, Patagonia...etc), but climbing gyms do make for very dangerous situations, and at the very least, overly crowded crags.


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By Tyler Newcomb
Nov 14, 2013

As one of the "kids" you are talking about, I disagree that all young climbers do these things. I agree with all the examples you posted, but not all young climbers are guilty. Personally I STRONGLY support preserving climbing areas and outdoor parks. There are some people who are guilty, but saying that it is all young climbers is just sterility ping. On the other hand I think It would be a good idea to have a class like this. My gym has a class called "get out: into to outdoor rock climbing" which covers skilled needed to go outdoors as well as ethnics and proper climbing ettiquette.

And I do not think that gyms are detrimental, as they are a great opportunity to train and learn in a safe environment. The problem comes in when people go climbing to hang out more than to climb. Then they go outdoors and they are the group who will cause problems


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By Tyler Newcomb
Nov 14, 2013

And I also think it is people like you who are experienced and are not willing to give some new climbers tips. I was fortunate to have a few people teach me early on the right things to do climbing outdoors. What I love about climbing is the people who would come up to me and say, not yell or get angry with, but explain "this is how it should be done" or " you guys should be a little quiter so you don't distract other climbers"


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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Nov 14, 2013

Gyms are hugely detrimental to the environment- they create new climbers. New climbers who are, for the most part, completely ignorant of what you term as common sense. It is unfortunate, but most gyms have their hands full trying to keep their customers from killing themselves and others just inside their facility, let alone teach them how to behave outside. I do think, though, that gyms will be the front line for combating this particular problem.

Fwiw, the Access Fund just had an 'Education Summit' in New Paltz, NY to address this exact issue. Your local gym also likely received a 'how to be courteous outdoors' poster from the AF- ask them to put it up if they haven't already.

Going forward, you'll see the AF using the results of this summit to do exactly what you're hoping they'll do.

Here's a link to Joey Kidner's blog about the summit:

www.joekindkid.com/2013/11/educate-for-access/


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By bearbreeder
Nov 14, 2013

the problem extends to ANY large group ... ive had "respected" mountaineering groups tell me that they are hogging the crag ... and that my partner cant do his first 10a lead which he has be getting ready for till all their group has run up the climb on TR

this past weekend i was belaying my partner, and he was working on a climb on lead and TR for the redpoint ... there was also a few of us so we were "hogging" the route as no one was around ...

when we saw some out of town climbers come by and look at the route, i offered to have the ropes pull down if they wanted to lead it ...

in my books, as long as they are leading it and not just setting up TRs for bangfests, leaders get priority

sadly many large groups will simply hog a route for mass bangings and not let anyone in

;)


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By Bill Kirby
From Baltimore Maryland
Nov 14, 2013
Me eating a cliff bar walking back from Frankenstein Amphitheater

I find the people that go out twice a year to be pretty decent. In my experiences it seems the ones that only do moderates are cool and the ones who climb hard are cool. The ones who are in between that think they're a badass hardman.. They're the f+cking problem.

I kinda enjoy crowds sometimes. You meet new people and learn different ways of doing things. Sometimes you get a good laugh.

I'm no expert but this is the way I deal with crowds:

1 Go out during the week. I just assume no more has a career around here since everyone's hating on capitalism.

2 Walk further than five minutes on the weekends to climb.

3 Get up early then once the crowds show up see #2


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By Bill Kirby
From Baltimore Maryland
Nov 14, 2013
Me eating a cliff bar walking back from Frankenstein Amphitheater

I thought about it and the whole crowd thing isn't relative here. I guess you could out climbing and the only other group could be a bunch of gangroping gym climbers. Sorry.. Well at least other half pertains to the subject.


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By nicelegs
From Denver
Nov 14, 2013

We are in an impass really.

You've got psyched and motivated climbers who want to earn a living. One of the best way for them to do that is by pimping the sport. Sometimes that means guiding, or learn to climb classes, adverts, or owning (or working at) a gym. So you have all the people who would prefer not to have crowds creating the crowds in order to work in the industry.

Then we've got the industry itself. It is market driven. If no-one wants gear, there won't be any. If few want gear, it won't be innovated.

There is no "answer". It sucks because lots of people suck. Learn to deal with it, it's only getting worse.


Does anyone remember the magazine article, maybe 6-7 years ago, about how to clear a crag? I think it was based on changing shorts every climb and not wearing underwear but there were other gems in there too.


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By Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Nov 14, 2013
...

"•Don't smoke weed in front of other peoples kids"

Don't drink BOOZE or fucking CIGS either.

Why pick only on weed?


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By Matt Pierce
From Denver, CO
Nov 14, 2013
View from the first belay ledge on The Staircase (5.5)

Maybe they need to read Matt's new book...

www.amazon.com/Crag-Survival-Handbook-Unspoken-Climbing/dp/1>>>


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By Ian Stewart
Nov 14, 2013

Assholes don't sign up for classes that teach them how to not be assholes...


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By Scott M. McNamara
From Tucson, Arizona
Nov 14, 2013
One Way Sunset

www.accessfund.org/site/c.tmL5KhNWLrH/b.8633083/k.FE68/Makin>>>


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Nov 14, 2013
modern man

Ian Stewart wrote:
Assholes don't sign up for classes that teach them how to not be assholes...


exactly, they dont read signs, posters or flyers either.

BITD when I was n00bing around with my bros(no gym experience) smoking the shit out of a bunch of weed, setting up sketchy TR anchors and back clipping my way up my first leads I had people come by and offer advice which helped a ton. If someone bugs you in their behavior you have many options like say something, ignore them, piss on their rope bag when they arent looking, slip your wag bag in their pack, let the air out of their tires or come home and get on the intarnet and bitch.


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By She's Such a B
From Lakewood, CO
Nov 14, 2013
Heel hook

Locker wrote:
"•Don't smoke weed in front of other peoples kids" Don't drink BOOZE or fucking CIGS either. Why pick only on weed?


Amen


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By Max Tepfer
From Bend, OR
Nov 14, 2013

What about the fact that the larger the user group the more weight they have with land managers? Obviously people new to climbing outside can be irritating and disrespectful. (young and old, from the gym or not) It's not that we don't want more climbers. If we want to preserve access to many crags around the country, public land managers need to recognize climbers as a primary user group of a given area as well as having a positive impact on the area's economy. (This is different on the east coast where there are more privately owned climbing venues...)


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By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Nov 14, 2013
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV

Matt Pierce wrote:
Maybe they need to read Matt's new book... www.amazon.com/Crag-Survival-Handbook-Unspoken-Climbing/dp/1>>>



I like how the cover of this book depicts an apparently sewn sling threaded through the nut tool itself (one of the kinds that does not have a self-contained carabiner).


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By coldfinger
Nov 14, 2013

Software that would erase all the stoopid nonsense bs that goes on on this site that makes climbers look like dumbasses!


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By mission
Nov 15, 2013

Most of these items have basically nothing to do with the conflict with land managers and climbers. Land managers care about:
-liability
-environmental impact (mostly erosion caused by bad trails or popular cliff lines)
-litter and any other damage to their land caused by climbers

As others have noted, the Access Fund's ability to magically make the inconsiderate become considerate is limited. It seems to me that the best use of resources is materials educating landowners about their legal liability or lack thereof, lobbying if needed, and teaching people how to make good trails and reinforce clifflines before it is too late.


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By jeb013
From Portland
Nov 15, 2013

I like where your thoughts are on this, I try not to pick on gym climbers too much as I started out in a gym. I also had years of outdoor experience so the basics (ie. don't shit on the trail) came easy to me.

I will give credit to the gym I frequent as they have posters up now talking about outdoor behaviors and have also started a gym to crag program to get the less experienced outside. One would hope that part of that program is education towards proper behavior, although I can't say for sure.

All to often you can run into large crowds of people who are obviously used to the street sweeper coming by and cleaning up their messes. Unfortunately that does not translate well to the outdoors.

jeb


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By The Stoned Master
Administrator
From Pennsylvania
Nov 15, 2013
Day Lily.

Jake said: People are assholes not because they don't know how to be courteous, but because they just don't give a shit.

100% accurate. these less than desireable people to be around know how to share, they know that if youre an asshole no ones going to like you (it cause issues, negative impacts on yourself, etc) and that its simply less disruptive and overall a more pleasurable time/experience/moment if you share, keep others emotions/goals in mind, etc

we modern humans (the majority atleast) learned what positive and/or negative impacts our actions and reactions have/had on others in/by kindergarten or pre-kindergarten. the fact that there are more than just a few who cant/wont be a TEAM PLAYERs is sad. Its not that they cant be, its that they dont want to be.

climbing is no different than anything else regarding humans: most everyones on a different page.

no teamwork amongst us (all of us) = continuing to stumble forward grasping in the dark for something, anything!

how do you get other climbers (regardless of ability, experience, etc) to drop their desires and put effort towards maximizing the positive potential experience of/for the whole?

note: maybe a "leave no trace" style campaign needs to be created but for crag ettiquette? maybe thats what the AFs new initiative is?


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By The Stoned Master
Administrator
From Pennsylvania
Nov 15, 2013
Day Lily.

it doesnt take knowledge of the "proper" use of quickdraws to know that your actions affect others.

it doesnt take 100s of multi-pitch rappels to know that I dont SOLEY own this PUBLIC LAND

it doesnt take "perfect" heel hooking technique to know that my music may not be the preferred music of others (at this PUBLIC place!)

it doesnt take the technique repitoire(?) of a V7/5.13a flasher to know that I am not the only creature with desire, with an agenda, with an objective.

there is no excuse for the shitty TEAMWORK of others. none.


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By Red
From Arizona
Nov 15, 2013
Cobra Kai

Locker wrote:
"•Don't smoke weed in front of other peoples kids" Don't drink BOOZE or fucking CIGS either. Why pick only on weed?

Because the government says weed is bad but alcohol and tobacco is fine.

To the OP, I completely agree with where you are coming from. I have thought for a while now that gyms need to be more responsible for the beast they are creating. I've thought about a "how to poop in nature" brochure being in all Gyms, but this is next level, you hit so many more topics. Gyms shouldn't stop at just the belay check, they should also teach proper outdoor etiquette and stewardship as well.


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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Nov 15, 2013

you're assuming that the people you're accusing know that they are on a team. most don't.

I've been in the stewardship game a long time. most people simply don't know how to behave outside. some don't care, most are happy to be a team player once they know the rules.

the best we can hope for is to teach everyone and hope that most will follow the rules, minimizing the amount of shit the rest of us have to pick up.


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