When does trad become sport?

In light of many hard trad mixed lines going up recently, at what point does too much fixed gear (pitons and so on) make it essentially a sport climb? Seems like if you do a 4 pitch mixed route and bring 10 QDs and only one or two cams you're pushing the physical "sport" aspect of climbing and not really doing a trad ascent. Is there a name for this? Fixed gear usually leaves a more visible trace than bolts as well.

Aside from the rare upward driven 20 year old piton, if every piece of fixed gear is essentially going to catch you just like a bolt, is it really a trad route?

This problem also occurs on crux pitches of easier classic alpine rock routes where there is so much fixed gear it's not even necessary to place more than a few 'backup' pieces while essentially clipping and forgetting like you would do once you clip a bolt.

I got 99 problems, but fixed gear ain't 1 of them...

Worry less about this kind of jazz and more about climbing...

Don't clip it if it bothers you. If you don't like seeing old fixed gear, pioneer some FAs somewhere--but don't leave any pro behind.

Is a crack where essentially every placement goes pre-determined, whether placed on lead or pink-pointed, still a trad climb?

Is an ice climb where I already know the 5 screws and where they go still an ice climb?

Is it still protected climbing if I just run it out for a 150 or more feet?

At some point, it's all sport climbing, and neither, but at the same time, I really don't give a fuck and I'll climb it just the same.

The triple point of climbing where all exist at the same time in perfect equilibrium.

Some times I place a nut on a sport route just to call it a trad route, makes you sound way more hardcore ;)

The new Ascent magazine has a article about this

Note that most people think of "mixed" climbing as ice/rock, not sport/trad.

Must be a slow day on MP...

Danger-Russ Gordon wrote:Some times I place a nut on a sport route just to call it a trad route, makes you sound way more hardcore ;)

David Sahalie wrote:Do whatever gets you the most sponsors. If you kinda suck by today's high standards in bouldering and sport, then do a 13c 'sprad' lead to get some shwag.

When your clipping more than placing. Fixed gear doesn't count at "bolts"

Ryan N wrote:When your clipping more than placing. Fixed gear doesn't count at "bolts"

Buff Johnson wrote:At some point, it's all sport climbing, and neither, but at the same time, I really don't give a fuck and I'll climb it just the same. The triple point of climbing where all exist at the same time in perfect equilibrium.

Brenden- Sport is sport, which is neither. And if your not placing then its sport.

Well, technically the ratio is .14298623 pieces of fixed gear per foot. Anything greater than this is a sport climb under international law.

Ryan N wrote:Brenden- Sport is sport, which is neither. And if your not placing then its sport.

Peteoria wrote:In light of many hard trad mixed lines going up recently, at what point does too much fixed gear (pitons and so on) make it essentially a sport climb? Seems like if you do a 4 pitch mixed route and bring 10 QDs and only one or two cams you're pushing the physical "sport" aspect of climbing and not really doing a trad ascent. Is there a name for this? Fixed gear usually leaves a more visible trace than bolts as well. Aside from the rare upward driven 20 year old piton, if every piece of fixed gear is essentially going to catch you just like a bolt, is it really a trad route? This problem also occurs on crux pitches of easier classic alpine rock routes where there is so much fixed gear it's not even necessary to place more than a few 'backup' pieces while essentially clipping and forgetting like you would do once you clip a bolt.

Jake Jones wrote:In the traditional distinction of the two, "traditional" vs. "sport" refers to how the line was established. There are "traditional" lines with entire pitches protected by nothing but bolts that were put in on lead, from the ground up. "Sport" routes are generally not established that way. I don't know that I've ever considered clipping a piton or a fixed nut the same as clipping a shiny stainless bolt. I certainly would never say that disregarding pitons, every piece of fixed gear will catch you like a bolt. I think anyone that relies solely upon fixed gear, unless there is absolutely no other choice, is gambling. A lot of that "fixed" gear is just gear that was irretrievable, not gear that was left on purpose for subsequent parties. In the end, just do what makes you tick. I think Rob has it exactly right.

Indian Creek.

josh

yawn