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Aug 21, 2007
Brad Brandewie wrote:
I guess my line about "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handy" wasn't enough to convey my sarcasm. I'll try to be more obvious next time.


Sorry, I'm a bit slow. It didn't seem like much of a stretch from what some people are saying on here, and they're being serious I'm pretty sure.
David Shiembob
From slc, ut
Joined Jul 5, 2005
188 points
Administrator
Aug 21, 2007
Grip strength training, Nevada style.
Psssst. Wanna know where to get some booty? I know some areas around vegas where some "sporto's" actually left the hangers on the bolts! and chains w/biners too! Damn, there are HUNDREDS of them things "left behind" by some lazy bastards! Rick Shull
From Arcata, CA & Dyer,NV
Joined Sep 7, 2006
2,997 points
Aug 21, 2007
Brad Brandewie wrote:
I guess my line about "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handy" wasn't enough to convey my sarcasm. I'll try to be more obvious next time.


My bad. I usually rely on the comment being what's known as 'funny' to pick up on sarcasm.
caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Joined Nov 21, 2006
1,896 points
Aug 21, 2007
I was going to post up a crag I've been climbing at lately, but it seems kind of stupid to now. It only takes one asshole to ruin a nice thing, and I'd feel like an idiot if people had their draws and/or stashed gear stolen because I directed a bunch of people on the internet to a previously little known crag. David Shiembob
From slc, ut
Joined Jul 5, 2005
188 points
Aug 21, 2007
caughtinside wrote:
My bad. I usually rely on the comment being what's known as 'funny' to pick up on sarcasm.


Hah, ditto.
David Shiembob
From slc, ut
Joined Jul 5, 2005
188 points
Administrator
Aug 21, 2007
Grip strength training, Nevada style.
I've had buddies "share" about a new crag only to have 40-50 draws stripped off projects overnight. What a nice way to say "thanks for all the work cleaning and bolting"! Rick Shull
From Arcata, CA & Dyer,NV
Joined Sep 7, 2006
2,997 points
Aug 21, 2007
Maya's first trip to RMNP.
caughtinside wrote:
My bad. I usually rely on the comment being what's known as 'funny' to pick up on sarcasm.



Then you must miss a lot of the sarcasm in the world.
Brad Brandewie
Joined Apr 29, 2001
3,049 points
Aug 21, 2007
Brad Brandewie wrote:
Then you must miss a lot of the sarcasm in the world.


I wouldn't say I'm missing it, Brad.
caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Joined Nov 21, 2006
1,896 points
Aug 22, 2007
This is pretty rich - a bunch of crotchety trad climbers discussing the nuances of high-end sport climbing. Ha Ha

How funny would it be if there were a pack of sportos arguing the relative merits of ground up lead bolting from free stances vs hooks.
Mike Anderson
From Colorado Springs, CO
Joined Nov 15, 2004
3,199 points
Aug 29, 2007
All I'm gonna say is when a biner has been hanging out so long that the sun facing side of the biner's anodized color has faded, it might be time to take that down and try a new project. Maybe without chipping the shit out of it this time. There are limestone caves in the Las Vegas area that do indeed look like climbing gyms in every sense, I'm just waiting for the bolt on holds.

Another thing I'd like to add, just because chipping and permadrawing a crag have become the norm should that justify continuing to do this? It seems like a shitty excuse to me.
Alvaro of the North
Joined Aug 18, 2007
1 points
Sep 6, 2007
If you do that, you are stealing. Say whatever you need to to justify it, but you are taking stuff that isn't yours, that YOU KNOW is not "abandoned" - it's stealing.

If their presence ruins your wilderness experience right next to the freeway there, you should find out who the draws belong to and talk to them about it, but taking them is stealing.

And what are you doing at the VRG this time of year?
Mike Anderson
From Colorado Springs, CO
Joined Nov 15, 2004
3,199 points
Sep 6, 2007
If I leave a bunch of cams in an IC crack..
Any different than leaving draws on an overhang?
Any different than leaving ice screws & screamers in Ouray?
Any different than leaving ropes fixed on a mountain?

Yes, why? because.


(oh - Ouray, man we're getting closer!!!!)
Buff Johnson
Joined Dec 19, 2005
1,499 points
Sep 7, 2007
I'll repeat myself for the thick-skulled: "Say whatever you need to to justify it, but you are taking stuff that isn't yours, that YOU KNOW is not "abandoned" - it's stealing."

If you find a wallet we all know the "right" thing to do is find the person and return it. Then there are others who grab the cash and throw the wallet in the trash.
Mike Anderson
From Colorado Springs, CO
Joined Nov 15, 2004
3,199 points
Administrator
Jan 12, 2008
There's more than one use for an Ice Hammer. Lake ...
Leaving gear hanging semi-permanently on any kind of rock is a sorry state of affairs. Hopefully the land managers don't eventually flip and decide to close the area to climbing. I know I would.

We have to think about the environment here - this is another unifying issue shared by sport and trad alike.
Chris Owen
From Big Bear Lake
Joined Jan 1, 2002
9,302 points
Jan 12, 2008
Finishing up Elusive Dream at the King Wall.  Adir...
I am partial to both traditional and sport climbing, yet I understand the necessity to leave draws in situ on some cliffs. Case in point, The Waimea Wall, Monsters of the Id Crag, and some sections of Orange Crush at Rumney. If you've ever climbed there you'd understand the need for such a practice, as cleaning a route would be next to impossible, and very unsafe for the climbers. Now, whether or not ALL hard sport climbs require this practice is debatable. If a 13C is on a dead vertical wall, then there is no need to leave draws permanently in place, only temporarily if your intentions are to project said route.

Recently, there was quite a tidal wave of opposition regarding perma- draws at Rumney. The ladder was removed from Waimea (access to the E-Ticket Ledge), and threats were made about cleaning every draw on the cliff (I'd sit on a lawn chair at the base with a cooler-full of beverages just to see that act!). The Rumney Climbers Coalition, along with many members of the New Hampshire climbing community had a meeting to discuss this rift amongst their clan. An agreement was reached that said it was appropriate and acceptable to leave draws on routes that were 5.12 and harder.

The Rumney decision is evidence that such a dichotomy can exist even within an ethically staunch state such as New Hampshire (e.g. bolts getting chopped on Cathedral Ledge).
Chris Duca
From Havertown, PA
Joined Dec 16, 2006
2,312 points
Feb 24, 2008
Hey Killis,
Great job protecting our access to the VRG...I am sure that stealing a bunch of first clip draws is decreasing the climbing impact in this sensitive area significantly. After all everyone who's draws you stole are all sponsored, so it's no big deal...just taking back from the MAN. I guess you have taken it a few too many times from the Man anyways right?

I am guessing you also brought your spray bottle up there to wash off some chalk and a shovel to work on the trail right? Boy you sure sound like a good Samaritan, too bad we don't have more of your type around here on the Front Range.

Just keep telling yourself that you are stealing for the common good of the climbing community....You know what Karma is right?
Kevin Stricker
From Evergreen, CO
Joined Oct 20, 2002
646 points
Feb 24, 2008
  Third bolt on last pitch of cheetah
Permadraws are never okay.
Take you gear home with you, or you are donating it to anybody with a stick clip.
Keep in mind this kind of thing has affected acess in other crags.
mikewhite
Joined Feb 28, 2007
98 points
Mar 3, 2008
feeling free
I would say it is only appropriate on routes that are severely overhung or otherwise difficult to clean. Also it depends on the other user groups in the area and how popular it is to them. If the access is sensitive, say private land or popular with groups such as hikers or birdwatchers, I'd say the draws are not appropriate.

Whether you are for fixed draws or not, I don't think anyone can say they look good. Hell I'm an avid sport climber and I personally think bolts look terrible.

An example of nessacary but terrible looking that comes to mind for me is The Bunkers at Foster Falls. I love the ease of clipping and not having to retrieve draws afterwards, but man it sure looks bad.
bbrock
From Al
Joined Dec 1, 2006
993 points
Mar 3, 2008
The Cathedral Spires in RMNP, left to right: Stile...
The Larry wrote:
How about fixed ropes? rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum...


Before this thing blows up all over MP.com I'll let you all know that it's a (very sophisticated) troll. And I'm the only idiot that got caught up in it.

--Marc
Marc H
From Lafayette, CO
Joined May 10, 2007
280 points
Mar 3, 2008
Hanging out with Karin on the summit of Warlock Ne...
Depends on the area.

If the access is really sensitive, gotta clean them all. In one such area, I watched a couple of dudes cleaning draws from a 60' horizontal roof once, yehaww! Non-trivial stunt to get all the draws back...
Greg Barnes
Joined Apr 10, 2006
1,535 points


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