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When are permadraws appropriate, if ever?
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By AccessFund HQ
Aug 21, 2007
AF logo

Rick Shull- "Iam curious about what the current Access Fund policy is on the matter."

This may seem a bit vague, however it is vague for good reasons:
-1. This issue is land manger dependent
-2. Local issues require local solutions. ie. fixed hardware review boards.

www.accessfund.org/pdf/memhandbook.pdf

page 14, "bolting policies"


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By SexPanther aka Kiedis
Aug 21, 2007
Thumbtastic

I find it super amusing that there's any controversy about fixed draws or other gear. Anything I leave outside of my property I expect to disappear one way or another. At the Hood a couple of months ago I saw some visiting climbers' kids jacking the first draw (or two) off of a couple of routes just scrambling around. Kinda cute-and if an unattended five year old can walk away with it-maybe carrying 12 ounces worth of ***climbing equipment*** instead of the odd protein bar and red bull might reap rewards. The bottom line is that most of the sportos I know tend to have a lot more disposable income than the gearheads. If you feel comfortable leaving your crap around to the whim of anyone who cares to walk by, so be it. I'm so protective of my cams I sometimes hide them from myself. Once it gets to the point that there are [fixed] lawnchairs, dog water bowls, handrails on flat ground, and so on, I consider that an unattended swap meet and back up the haul truck. There is a definite difference between a projected route, a route that has a couple of extremely hard to clean draws that tend to stick around, and places that are set up like gyms, violating BLM federal wilderness policy and endagering access. I think that this is a grey area for many people and that's why I posed the question-seeing reactions to these forums help us see whether these existing situations are OK with everyone or if they're seen as something to be worked on.


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By bldrite
Aug 21, 2007

Adding my humble opinion here...

Perma-draws/chains are acceptable in some areas on the steep stuff as a matter of practicality and safety. Cleaning some routes on the descent is dangerous, and sometimes not possible. "Booty" theives complicate this. Many times a full rack of chains isn't required because a lone "cleaner" biner appropriately placed to protect the climber cleaning the lower portion of the route can be used, but they inevitably get taken. I myself have left numerous cleaner biners only to have them removed by someone.

I had to bail this weekend off the River Wall in Clear Creek due to a storm, left 14 draws on the wall. Is this booty? I went back yesterday and retreived them, fortunately they were on a route not to accessible to those who would feel they were theirs for the taking. It disappoints me to think someone would view that as booty.


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By Brad Brandewie
Aug 21, 2007
Maya's first trip to RMNP.

I guess my line about "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handy" wasn't enough to convey my sarcasm.

I'll try to be more obvious next time.


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By David Shiembob
From slc, ut
Aug 21, 2007

Brad Brandewie wrote:
I guess my line about "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handy" wasn't enough to convey my sarcasm. I'll try to be more obvious next time.


Sorry, I'm a bit slow. It didn't seem like much of a stretch from what some people are saying on here, and they're being serious I'm pretty sure.


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By Rick Shull
Administrator
From Arcata, CA & Dyer,NV
Aug 21, 2007
Grip strength training, Nevada style.

Psssst. Wanna know where to get some booty? I know some areas around vegas where some "sporto's" actually left the hangers on the bolts! and chains w/biners too! Damn, there are HUNDREDS of them things "left behind" by some lazy bastards!


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By caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Aug 21, 2007

Brad Brandewie wrote:
I guess my line about "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handy" wasn't enough to convey my sarcasm. I'll try to be more obvious next time.


My bad. I usually rely on the comment being what's known as 'funny' to pick up on sarcasm.


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By David Shiembob
From slc, ut
Aug 21, 2007

I was going to post up a crag I've been climbing at lately, but it seems kind of stupid to now. It only takes one asshole to ruin a nice thing, and I'd feel like an idiot if people had their draws and/or stashed gear stolen because I directed a bunch of people on the internet to a previously little known crag.


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By David Shiembob
From slc, ut
Aug 21, 2007

caughtinside wrote:
My bad. I usually rely on the comment being what's known as 'funny' to pick up on sarcasm.


Hah, ditto.


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By Rick Shull
Administrator
From Arcata, CA & Dyer,NV
Aug 21, 2007
Grip strength training, Nevada style.

I've had buddies "share" about a new crag only to have 40-50 draws stripped off projects overnight. What a nice way to say "thanks for all the work cleaning and bolting"!


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By SexPanther aka Kiedis
Aug 21, 2007
Thumbtastic

IMHO there is a difference in a crag being developed and so gear is stashed in a place off the beaten path with the intention of finishing routes, removing gear, and opening the crag to public konwledge, and guys who haven't climbed in the better part of a decade who never cleaned up their sponsor-bought tat from the ceiling of some piece of swiss cheese-I mean cliff.

I'm thinking that it's hard to argue non-chain permadraws are safe or ethical once they've been on a completed route for more than 2 years. If no one's replacing them on a regular basis, it's more a sign of what trad climbers love to point out, often fairly, about sport climbing ethics and their lack of leave no trace ethics. It's just gradually deteriorating trash that doesn't improve access.

On the other hand, I can see the argument that classic canyon multi-pitch tend to have slings around trees etc-this "trash" gets around the need to have bolted anchors in all kinds of choss in uncomfortable places. It seems like one's preventative and one kind of unnecessary, but that's probably bias speaking. Any full-on sportos out there who have beef with specific spots as far as excessive permadraws?


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By Brad Brandewie
Aug 21, 2007
Maya's first trip to RMNP.

caughtinside wrote:
My bad. I usually rely on the comment being what's known as 'funny' to pick up on sarcasm.



Then you must miss a lot of the sarcasm in the world.


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By caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Aug 21, 2007

Brad Brandewie wrote:
Then you must miss a lot of the sarcasm in the world.


I wouldn't say I'm missing it, Brad.


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By Mike Anderson
From Dayton, OH
Aug 22, 2007

This is pretty rich - a bunch of crotchety trad climbers discussing the nuances of high-end sport climbing. Ha Ha

How funny would it be if there were a pack of sportos arguing the relative merits of ground up lead bolting from free stances vs hooks.


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By SexPanther aka Kiedis
Aug 23, 2007
Thumbtastic

Probably about as amusing as the tantrums I see every time I see the Very Serious Climbers (VSCs) flipping out because "it's too humid [in the desert southwest, at 8500 ft elevation] to hold on to these stupid (&^%($($ holds!"

Ya gotta love it. It's funny-I saw Croft do the same thing ropeless on Astroman-no, no I didn't. Must be the humidity making my memory slip. :)


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By Alvaro of the North
Aug 29, 2007

All I'm gonna say is when a biner has been hanging out so long that the sun facing side of the biner's anodized color has faded, it might be time to take that down and try a new project. Maybe without chipping the shit out of it this time. There are limestone caves in the Las Vegas area that do indeed look like climbing gyms in every sense, I'm just waiting for the bolt on holds.

Another thing I'd like to add, just because chipping and permadrawing a crag have become the norm should that justify continuing to do this? It seems like a shitty excuse to me.


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By SexPanther aka Kiedis
Sep 6, 2007
Thumbtastic

Kinda sad to see this one die...I went up to the VRG a few days ago, and I have a new policy on "fixed" draws-if it's reachable by me (under 6 foot) without standing on tiptoe, FROM THE GROUND...it's fair game. I don't care how lazy, crazy, or rarified your perspective is...if you're leaving climbing gear where people that can't climb a ladder can walk off with, that's going in my bag. Madness...like it's a hike from the car or something. Bring two draws to get started, for crying out loud!


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By Mike Anderson
From Dayton, OH
Sep 6, 2007

If you do that, you are stealing. Say whatever you need to to justify it, but you are taking stuff that isn't yours, that YOU KNOW is not "abandoned" - it's stealing.

If their presence ruins your wilderness experience right next to the freeway there, you should find out who the draws belong to and talk to them about it, but taking them is stealing.

And what are you doing at the VRG this time of year?


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By Buff Johnson
Sep 6, 2007
smiley face

If I leave a bunch of cams in an IC crack..
Any different than leaving draws on an overhang?
Any different than leaving ice screws & screamers in Ouray?
Any different than leaving ropes fixed on a mountain?

Yes, why? because.


(oh - Ouray, man we're getting closer!!!!)


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By SexPanther aka Kiedis
Sep 6, 2007
Thumbtastic

Sweating and wondering why BD is giving draws to people that put them on bolts three feet off the ground. The temps last weekend were perfect up til 11 am or so; should've brought my trunks.

I think that stealing is probably what some people would call it if they left a wad of cash on the sidewalk in front of their house overnight, then got upset when it wasn't there in the morning. Again, if innertubing rednecks could just as easily walk off with it as I could, maybe it's past stealing and into property abandonment. I just wanted to post this as the VRG was the end of the road for me. If it's sitting on the ground in the wilderness-well, let's just say I'm not leaving my shit all over the place for someone else to find.

"Trust in Allah, but tie up your camel"-the Koran

And as far as starting some kind of back-and-forth that will never die over two draws that someone got for free from BD and left sitting in some cleft in the Arizona badlands...is it even worth it to type about it? If I was a tenth as punk rock as I was when I first started climbing, I'd be going home with a lot more than 2 draws. I guess my complacency and laziness really benefits the fixed draw community-I guess it helps me fit in better, anyway. Let the slagging begin!


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By Mike Anderson
From Dayton, OH
Sep 7, 2007

I'll repeat myself for the thick-skulled: "Say whatever you need to to justify it, but you are taking stuff that isn't yours, that YOU KNOW is not "abandoned" - it's stealing."

If you find a wallet we all know the "right" thing to do is find the person and return it. Then there are others who grab the cash and throw the wallet in the trash.


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By SexPanther aka Kiedis
Sep 7, 2007
Thumbtastic

I'm a thick-skull with some thin-skull's abandoned property swinging from my harness. Next time I'm gonna hook up a folding chair and a dog dish, too. I love sport climbing!

Also, unintentionally left gear deserves to be put up on the community message board for possible return to its owner. Trying to convince me that intentionally left draws on every route at the VRG are in some way comparable to a mistakenly dropped wallet only heightens the hilarity of this "dialogue". But thanks for trying!

Sometimes people learn to keep up with their belongings after misplacing them and having to replace them for the nth time. Sometimes not. Either way, thanks to BD for sharing the (chinese) wealth!


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By Chris Owen
Administrator
From La Crescenta and Big Bear Lake
Jan 12, 2008
There's more than one use for an Ice Hammer. Lake District (UK) late '70s

Leaving gear hanging semi-permanently on any kind of rock is a sorry state of affairs. Hopefully the land managers don't eventually flip and decide to close the area to climbing. I know I would.

We have to think about the environment here - this is another unifying issue shared by sport and trad alike.


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By Chris Duca
Administrator
From Havertown, PA
Jan 12, 2008
Finishing up Elusive Dream at the King Wall.  Adirondacks, NY.

I am partial to both traditional and sport climbing, yet I understand the necessity to leave draws in situ on some cliffs. Case in point, The Waimea Wall, Monsters of the Id Crag, and some sections of Orange Crush at Rumney. If you've ever climbed there you'd understand the need for such a practice, as cleaning a route would be next to impossible, and very unsafe for the climbers. Now, whether or not ALL hard sport climbs require this practice is debatable. If a 13C is on a dead vertical wall, then there is no need to leave draws permanently in place, only temporarily if your intentions are to project said route.

Recently, there was quite a tidal wave of opposition regarding perma- draws at Rumney. The ladder was removed from Waimea (access to the E-Ticket Ledge), and threats were made about cleaning every draw on the cliff (I'd sit on a lawn chair at the base with a cooler-full of beverages just to see that act!). The Rumney Climbers Coalition, along with many members of the New Hampshire climbing community had a meeting to discuss this rift amongst their clan. An agreement was reached that said it was appropriate and acceptable to leave draws on routes that were 5.12 and harder.

The Rumney decision is evidence that such a dichotomy can exist even within an ethically staunch state such as New Hampshire (e.g. bolts getting chopped on Cathedral Ledge).


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By SexPanther aka Kiedis
Feb 24, 2008
Thumbtastic

Wait a minute--Chris Owen's post sounds like something someone would say if they actually cared about where they climbed, how climbers present themselves to other outdoor user groups, and ensuring access to our cliffs.

I guess the rest of you either left some draws up REEEEEAAAAL low at the VRG, like Gary Coleman low, or maybe some of you yucksters are the type that got Torrent Falls closed to climbing before some kind soul came to the rescue. Thanks from me, Bob Matheny. I do everything I can to leave the climbing world a better place, too-even if that means I have to occasionally make the careless/thoughtless aware that there is a larger world out there than their cubicle, subaru, and condo.


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