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Aug 16, 2007
Which way again?
. Cunning Linguist
Joined Feb 15, 2007
2,478 points
Aug 16, 2007
Nick Stayner near the crux. Ryan Minton photo.
If they bug you, go up there and get 'em! Nick Stayner
From Billings, MT
Joined Mar 6, 2006
2,606 points
Aug 16, 2007
Rrrrrrrrrrrr
IMO permanent draws are unsightly and unnecessary. I have never understood their use. I suppose on massively overhanging 5.14 routes they may make some sense, but they're still an eyesore. Now I can't climb at that level and never will but how can someone "redpoint" a line with permanent draws? I hate that they misuse the term in the climbing mags when referring to such ascents. I say if you can't hang the necessary gear you can't redpoint it, or you can climb it solo.

It is especially troubling to hear that permanent draws are showing up on moderate lines. I haven't seen this anywhere and I hope it isn't a trend.
Bill Olszewski
From Colorado Springs, CO
Joined Mar 10, 2007
11,407 points
Aug 16, 2007
The only time these should be used is on cave routes where cleaning the line is a huge pain in the ass. There are already bolts on the wall, are fixed draws any worse? It's sport climbing man. Matt TeNgaio
Joined Jun 11, 2007
187 points
Administrator
Aug 17, 2007
Grip strength training, Nevada style.
I am curious about what the current Access Fund policy is on the matter. It is interesting to hear that BLM has a policy regarding the type of fixture allowed to attach a rope to a "legal" bolt. If chains are BLM acceptable for lowering/rappel anchors, why wouldn't chain draws be ok legally? Personally, I can only see leaving draws on a climb that is being "worked" for an FA and then only until the route is completed. To me, "fixing" a "permadraw" is appropriate only under certain circumstances. One, is super steep routes in heavily forested areas where a swing while cleaning is more dangerous than leading the climb. Another, would be on routes that are so steep the bolts would have to be excessive just to be able to get into the rock to reach each bolt as you "tram" down. Let's say 5 camo'd chain draws instead of 12 bolts with shiny hangers every 2 feet. But then again, if your partner would just follow the damn thing, instead of insisting that everyone must lead each route, the draws could get cleaned the "old fashioned" way. Rick Shull
From Arcata, CA & Dyer,NV
Joined Sep 7, 2006
2,997 points
Aug 17, 2007
Rrrrrrrrrrrr
Rick, your last line says it all. If someone just follows the route, permadraws aren't necessary. I love sport climbing but this is one situation where I think sport ethics maybe crosses a line that shouldn't be crossed. Matt - yes, it's worse; a collection of chain draws plus a chain anchor, as opposed to a collection of bolts plus a chain anchor. Don't get me wrong - this isn't a mission for me. Just tossing my $0.02 in response to the posting. Bill Olszewski
From Colorado Springs, CO
Joined Mar 10, 2007
11,407 points
Aug 17, 2007
You can love your rope but you can't "LOVE&qu...
Just my .02. There really is no such thing as a "permanent" quickdraw. They are way more subject to weathering than anything made of metal. So a permadraw will become tat eventually.

I am not, however, condoning perma-pro, in the form of chains or whatever. If you want to climb sport, clip the bolts and clean the draws.
Lee Smith
Joined Sep 5, 2003
1,686 points
Aug 17, 2007
"someone around here must be sponsored by Chain-a-rama, because I'm pretty sure no one's cutting back on their weed intake to afford permachains at Robber's Roost and the Hood." That was a good one, Killis. I got a laugh out of that line. Other than cave routes, I never saw much point in permadraws. JimG
Joined Jul 14, 2007
16 points
Aug 17, 2007
Bill Olszewski wrote:
Matt - yes, it's worse; a collection of chain draws plus a chain anchor, as opposed to a collection of bolts plus a chain anchor. Don't get me wrong - this isn't a mission for me. Just tossing my $0.02 in response to the posting.


Bill,
No harm done, everyone has their own opinion. Maybe I came off sounding a little

I'm really not an advocate for fixed draws, I've just always thought there was no harm in equipping ultra steep routes with them. I have yet to run into slabby-to-slightly overhung routes with permadraws yet but I'm sure I'll bust a nut laughing when I do. Can you imagine Magic Bus wall at Red Rocks with permadraws?
Matt TeNgaio
Joined Jun 11, 2007
187 points
Aug 18, 2007
Bill Olszewski wrote:
Matt - yes, it's worse; a collection of chain draws plus a chain anchor, as opposed to a collection of bolts plus a chain anchor. Don't get me wrong - this isn't a mission for me. Just tossing my $0.02 in response to the posting.


Bill,
No harm done, eveyone has a right to their own opinions. Maybe I came off sounding a litle brash.

I don't really see the point of permadraws unless on uber-steep routes. I have yet to see permadraws on vertical/slab climbs but I'm sure I'll bust a nut laughing when I do. Can you imagine fixed draws on Magic Bus Wall at Red Rocks?!
Matt TeNgaio
Joined Jun 11, 2007
187 points
Aug 18, 2007
Church of the Lost and Found, Left. Summer 2013
Bill Olszewski wrote:
Now I can't climb at that level and never will but how can someone "redpoint" a line with permanent draws? I hate that they misuse the term in the climbing mags when referring to such ascents. I say if you can't hang the necessary gear you can't redpoint it, or you can climb it solo.


For that matter, how can someone "redpoint" a route that has bolts? Bolts are clearly pre-placed pro. All sport climbs are pink points. To match the lycra, eh? :)
Tavis Ricksecker
From Bishop, ca
Joined Dec 30, 2006
3,927 points
Aug 18, 2007
I don't sport climb much but when I do I have to admitt its fun and I like to get on the super steep. So whats my .02? If its not going to be an access issue(piss off land managers) and if they are chains(so they don't weaken) then their great. Most of the sport areas you will see them at the chalk on the walls stands out a lot more then some camaflauged chains. So where are they appropriate? Places where you won't piss off land managers and where it is super steep. Ratings don't really matter so much as the steepness does. If you disagree with this then let me ask you how many totally overhung routes have you tried to clean. Lets say the route is 60 ft long and you end up 40 ft behind the belayer from when you started. If someone goes up to clean it and falls after cleaning the first few bolts then they have to get lowered back down (because they can't get back on the route with out some monumental effort or prussiks, which after doing this they will probably be too spent to finish the route). So now the only way to get back on the climb is to relead it at the beginning because if you don't and try toproping it without the first few bolts clipped you take a grounder. So now you have to relead it and still have to get it cleaned. Yeah, I know some of you will just say that I am lazy but maybe one go on the route is all you can do that day.
So thats my .02, let the bashings begin.
CStewart
From Salt Lake City, UT
Joined Dec 13, 2006
0 points
Aug 18, 2007
Rrrrrrrrrrrr
Matt - thanks. I think we're really not far apart on our thinking. Let's hope we never see permadraws on the Magic Bus - icchh. That would probably be the end of legal climbing anywhere at the first three pullouts!

Tavis - point well-taken. I guess it's really just a matter of degree. On a "clean" trad line the leader sets pro, may or may not hang a runner, then clips the rope. On a sport route, he hangs the draw then clips the rope. With permadraws, he still has to clip the rope. All three scenarios require doing something with one hand for protection while at a stance that may or may not be tenuous, and on the routes with permanent draws all the stances are likely to be tenuous. So I guess the term "redpoint" is situational. Nice touch with the lycra comment, ha ha.

duffy dog - no bashing necessary. You also make a good point. I've TR'd a couple overhanging .11's that are nowhere near as extreme as the example you gave, but nevertheless, one fall and it's back to the ground to start the whole sequence over.

Oh well, just don't want to see the great outdoors start looking like the inside of a climbing gym...
Bill Olszewski
From Colorado Springs, CO
Joined Mar 10, 2007
11,407 points
Aug 18, 2007
Never really been a fan of fixed draws.

Killis, are you out there driving the BLM out these four wheel drive roads, and hiking them upto cliffs to point out all these draws?
alpinglow
From city, state
Joined Mar 12, 2001
77 points
Aug 20, 2007
Crux?
Perma???? Unless they are welding the gates shut that shit is booty!!! Cash in if you can get to em. Fuck man, you leave it, don't expect it to be there when you come back. Daniel Crescenzo
Joined Jul 2, 2007
51 points
Aug 20, 2007
This discussion sounds like a bunch of die hard trad climbers with old school ethics agreeing with each other. My favorite comments are the ones that begin with "I like sport climbing as much as the next guy" and end with "if you can't hang your own draws then you aren't redpointing the route."

I for one don't have a problem with permanant draws in areas where that is the standard (and that standard can be one established as the area is developed or it can be one that evolves over time).

When I'm trad climbing I enjoy placing the gear -- for me it is part of the puzzle of ascending a trad line. For example, working the Evictor or the Wasp, each gear placement actually becomes part of the beta/moves for the climb, as in those cases the gear placements are often just as strenuous as the hardest actual moves.

But when I'm sport climbing, I want my entire focus to be on the movement. Clipping draws is a distracting necessity because the other two options (soloing or top roping) don't appeal to me. In areas like Rifle, I enjoy the presense of fixed draws. Incidentally, if you can accept the presence of draws on 13's and 14's, but are wondering why many of the 11's and 12's there have draws, I would venture that there are people who equip both their projects and their warmups with draws so that they can project efficiently. If this sounds silly to you, try working on a single route for months on end and you'll understand.

Would you argue that one of the few climbers who has sent 5.15 on fixed draws should "get stronger" so he can hang the draws? If not, then you have no right to say someone who just sent their first 5.13a on fixed draws needs to get stronger so they can hang them. For that matter, you have no right to denigrate someone's style of ascent on any grade.

Let people climb the way they want to climb. Encourage other climbers to climb the way they want to climb. If you're inspired by "better style" then seek out climbs that suit your needs.

As far as terminology (redpoint vs. pinkpoint), yes, by the technical definition of the term most hard redpoints are actually pinkpoints... but if you don't realize that these terms are interchangeable these days, you're still living in the 80's. In fact, most hard trad climbs are specifically reported as "gear placed on lead" to elaborate on the style.

Lastly, going up there and stealing fixed draws in the name of "cleaning up an eyesore" or justifying them as "booty," is bullshit. That's just a great way to alienate other climbers and create divides in our community. If your concern is access, then there are TONS of ways to invest your energy that will benefit ALL climbers (cleaning chalk for example).
Josh Janes
Joined Jun 8, 2001
7,843 points
Administrator
Aug 20, 2007
Grip strength training, Nevada style.
Very well stated, Josh. Rick Shull
From Arcata, CA & Dyer,NV
Joined Sep 7, 2006
2,997 points
Aug 21, 2007
Daniel Crescenzo wrote:
Perma???? Unless they are welding the gates shut that shit is booty!!! Cash in if you can get to em. Fuck man, you leave it, don't expect it to be there when you come back.


No, that would make you a thieving asshole. The occasional draw or bail biner on a route is booty, because the person either forgot it or used it to bail. A route equipped with draws means someone left them there on purpose. Feel free to clip them but don't STEAL them. I can't believe I have to type this out. You're part of the reason people don't post about their cave crags on the internet.
David Shiembob
From slc, ut
Joined Jul 5, 2005
188 points
Aug 21, 2007
Draws left on a route are an eyesore that is unnecessary for a safe ascent anyway you look at them. They also seem to atract attention sometimes leading to access issues. They were probably born in a climbing gym and need to stay there in my opinion. Of course, I'm just an over the hill climber who grew up in an era of chalk use being suspect and clean-climbing being "The Standard" Jim Gloeckler
From Denver, Colo.
Joined Jul 7, 2004
47 points
Aug 21, 2007
Maya's first trip to RMNP.
Personally I don't like seeing fixed draws. That being said, unless there is an access issue, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

What bothers me more is the dumbing down of our climbing jargon by accepting that a pink point is a red point. Does this really matter? Of course not. Do many people consider them to be the same thing? Yes.

Isn't the whole point of language to be able to express different ideas and to make distinctions? It is definitely harder to red point than pink point. To call a pink point a red point is a slight to those who actually red pointed it.

And thus concludes our "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handy"...
Brad Brandewie
Joined Apr 29, 2001
3,049 points
Aug 21, 2007
Brad Brandewie wrote:
What bothers me more is the dumbing down of our climbing jargon by accepting that a pink point is a red point. Does this really matter? Of course not. Do many people consider them to be the same thing? Yes. Isn't the whole point of language to be able to express different ideas and to make distinctions? It is definitely harder to red point than pink point. To call a pink point a red point is a slight to those who actually red pointed it.


Oh yes. To say you redpointed something that you really pinkpointed is like spitting a giant loogie in the faces of those strong men who came before you and clipped draw to bolt. They must be rolling in their graves, or at least rolling whereever the hell they are now.

Thanks Josh for the great reply.
caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Joined Nov 21, 2006
1,895 points
Aug 21, 2007
Anyone who climbs hard sport will tell you pre-hung draws are acceptable for a lead. No one who actually projects sport routes feels the need to place their draws on lead every time they go for the route! The pinkpoint/redpoint terminology is archaic with regards to sport climbing. I'm sorry if that offends your trad-based "place gear on lead" sensibilities, but we're not talking about trad climbing, we're talking about clipping bolts.

Also, draws left on very overhanging routes have their place. There are some places where this might not be appropriate, but there are other places that get very little, probably none, non-climber traffic. It's pretty nice to have draws pre-hung, both for the person projecting the route, and for other people that want to jump on it without having to worry about getting to the top or leaving a bail biner. It all depends on the situation, obviously it's not worth losing access over, but there are some places where that's probably not much of an issue.
David Shiembob
From slc, ut
Joined Jul 5, 2005
188 points
Aug 21, 2007
Permadraws seem appropriate in a climbing gym.

Let's link this thread with the one about stashing pads - it's the same mentality at work......
Mike Storeim
From Evergreen, CO
Joined Sep 16, 2002
48 points
Aug 21, 2007
AF logo
Rick Shull- "Iam curious about what the current Access Fund policy is on the matter."

This may seem a bit vague, however it is vague for good reasons:
-1. This issue is land manger dependent
-2. Local issues require local solutions. ie. fixed hardware review boards.

accessfund.org/pdf/memhandbook...

page 14, "bolting policies"
AccessFund HQ
Joined Aug 6, 2007
30 points
Aug 21, 2007
Adding my humble opinion here...

Perma-draws/chains are acceptable in some areas on the steep stuff as a matter of practicality and safety. Cleaning some routes on the descent is dangerous, and sometimes not possible. "Booty" theives complicate this. Many times a full rack of chains isn't required because a lone "cleaner" biner appropriately placed to protect the climber cleaning the lower portion of the route can be used, but they inevitably get taken. I myself have left numerous cleaner biners only to have them removed by someone.

I had to bail this weekend off the River Wall in Clear Creek due to a storm, left 14 draws on the wall. Is this booty? I went back yesterday and retreived them, fortunately they were on a route not to accessible to those who would feel they were theirs for the taking. It disappoints me to think someone would view that as booty.
bldrite
Joined Jul 6, 2007
51 points
Aug 21, 2007
Maya's first trip to RMNP.
I guess my line about "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handy" wasn't enough to convey my sarcasm.

I'll try to be more obvious next time.
Brad Brandewie
Joined Apr 29, 2001
3,049 points


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