What is an "onsight"?

I know what I think it is, but what do you think?

Consider this, say you climb up a route... however far you get, no falls, no aiding, you get to a move that you can't figure out, and downclimb either cleaning as you go or leaving the rope in the highest pro, still no falls or aiding... take a break at a ledge or on the ground, then go back up to 'finish the onsight attempt'... do you still consider that an onsight?

What if you do the first move and aren't ready to commit to making the first clip, so you take one downstep back to the ground?

I lean to saying yes, its still an onsight... climbed each move first try without falling, there for onsighted each move with no hangdogging in between... i.e. no moves caused you to fall.

How about this... say after downclimbing you go home and rest for a week, then go back to it. Say you do this for over a year, making one extra move a month... is it still an onsight? I know that sounds rediculous, but it could happen...

I don't think it really matters.

But if an answer must be given, no. An onsight to me is first time with no beta, and if you've climbed up to a move then it gives you a better perspective on what to do for the next couple moves than if you were looking at it from the ground. First try, first day, or no onsight, just redpoint.

However, if there's a ledge ON THE ROUTE then i think it still is an onsight if you downclimb to the ledge. Because you would still be climbing the route, but at a rest spot. If you downclimb to the ground you're no longer climbing the route

What if you climb all but the LAST move, then downclimb it to the ground, then climb the whole thing?

What are your ideas about how much beta is too much to count an onsignt (or how little beta is allowable)? Is knowing the rating too much? Does chalk on the holds give too much away? What about a bolt line or a piece of fixed gear left on the route? What if someone gave you some beta when you were really drunk, but you think you can't remember it on the day of the climb?

A send and a flash are pretty clear cut (redpoint vs. pinkpoint on bolts not so much, I guess), but there seems to be a degree of subjectivity that comes with an onsight claim.

Disclaimer: I don't really worry about this kind of thing when I'm actually climbing (though this could be because I'm not very good). It's more a type of curiosity that seeps in as I wax pedantic sitting at my computer, and am overtaken by questions of judgment and consensus that tend to leave me alone at the crag.

Evan Sanders wrote:However, if there's a ledge ON THE ROUTE then i think it still is an onsight if you downclimb to the ledge. Because you would still be climbing the route, but at a rest spot. If you downclimb to the ground you're no longer climbing the route

Also, does it make a difference if the aforementioned ledge on the route is a belay ledge vs. a ledge in the middle of a pitch? What if you fall a few feet, but land safely on the ledge before the rope comes taut? Fall? Down-dyno? Why am I still asking questions?

iamjester wrote: What if you fall a few feet, but land safely on the ledge before the rope comes taut? Fall? Down-dyno? Why am I still asking questions?

Thats an advance to the rear.

Phil Lauffen wrote: Thats an advance to the rear.

Reminds me of that line from the end of 180* South: “People say you can’t go back but what happens if you get to the cliff and you take one step forward. Or you turn 180 degrees and take one step forward…. Which is progress?”

...but only because I couldn't think of a good joke.

iamjester wrote:What if you fall a few feet, but land safely on the ledge before the rope comes taut? Fall? Down-dyno? Why am I still asking questions?

Neither, that's called a broken ankle!

Joseph Stover wrote:I know what I think it is, but what do you think?

I think an onsight feels like an onsight. You don't really care if you onsighted the warmup, but you feel damn proud of the onsight when you arrive at a climb, meet it on its terms, and battle the shit out of it to arrive at the top feeling like you really gave something to get there. Those are the ones I remember, anyway. If you are looking for the tax loophole version of an onsight, more power to you, I guess.

Zeke wrote: If you are looking for the tax loophole version of an onsight, more power to you, I guess.

exactly... lol

Simply knowing it has been climbed ruins the Onsight, as knowing it has already been climbed is a type of beta. Any route that has been previously done can only be at best Flashed. An Onsight can only occur with a ground-up FFA.

Also, Onsight Mechanical is the name of my budding plumbing/mechanical service gig.

Mike Lane wrote:Simply knowing it has been climbed ruins the Onsight, as knowing it has already been climbed is a type of beta. Any route that has been previously done can only be at best Flashed. An Onsight can only occur with a ground-up FFA. Also, Onsight Mechanical is the name of my budding plumbing/mechanical service gig.

Sounds like a pretty fair definition. If you know it's been climbed, you know it's climbable. No compromises, I like it.

Evan Sanders wrote:I don't think it really matters.

+1

ya, its totally true... ticked holds, knowing the grade, a little beta from a guidebook or website... knowing that the crux is short or long... all technically killing the onsight...

I still count my onsights though. How old is that word? Was it really what old school style FA's used back in the day for putting up new routes and the modern climber has just bastardized it? Should we all just be using "beta flash"?

Mike Lane wrote:Simply knowing it has been climbed ruins the Onsight, as knowing it has already been climbed is a type of beta. Any route that has been previously done can only be at best Flashed. An Onsight can only occur with a ground-up FFA. Also, Onsight Mechanical is the name of my budding plumbing/mechanical service gig.

I like this, if only because it means I can drop the term "onsight" from my usual climbing lexicon entirely and just start calling everything a flash, which is way simpler.

what if i reach up to a hold, pull my body up 6 inches, think it's not the right one for the sequence, lower back the 6 inches, try another hold, realize it's worse, go back to the original hold, and continue on to the anchors? is that an onsight?

What if you fall and catch yourself, and the rope/gear never bears any force?

What if the rope is weighted in reverse; bad belay and you get pulled down, fall and catch yourself without applying a force to the rope? Although a ground fall should definitely negate the onsight attempt... but if you catch yourself on some holds at the grade... that might warrant some points.

Same thing as pulling on a hold and slipping off and catching yourself... so is the definition of onsight that you can't fall or slip, and everything must be first go, perfect form, or just that you cannot use any manmade gear for aid?

Doesn't really matter if you're older than about 50. Redpoint today, onsight tomorrow.

What do you call it when a blind person sends a route without any beta?

Ian Stewart wrote:What do you call it when a blind person sends a route without any beta?

Unless he just walked into a cliff and decided to climb it, he would have known it was there. According to our recent definition, that's beta.

Crag Dweller wrote:what if i reach up to a hold, pull my body up 6 inches, think it's not the right one for the sequence, lower back the 6 inches, try another hold, realize it's worse, go back to the original hold, and continue on to the anchors? is that an onsight?

No, as it has anchors. It is a flash as long as you din't weigh the gear in any way.

Real climbers only onsight.

Everything else is hiking.

I only use MP for "Dirtbag Deals" - never beta....because I only onsight.

Because I'm a real climber.

I also only climb 12c and harder.....

onsight.

trad.