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What do you carry peak bagging
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By Martin le Roux
From Superior, CO
Feb 2, 2012
Stairway to Heaven

johnL wrote:
I hate the term peak bagging. It's glorifying walking up a mountain in shitty conditions. The English have the proper term, Hill Walking. Peak bagging is an insecure American way of saying the same.


I always thought of "peak bagging" as a state of mind, not a style of climbing. Lots of people on the normal routes on Denali or Rainier could be described as peak baggers, but that's certainly not hill walking.


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By superkick
From West Hartford, CT
Feb 2, 2012
Free Solo up hitchcock gully WI3

The dissapointment cleaver or west butresss arent hill walking?


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By Andrew Gram
Administrator
From Salt Lake City, UT
Feb 2, 2012
Andrew Gram

cms829 wrote:
What does everyone use for weather updates on the bigger mountains? Take Rainier for example. Sometimes I get spotty cell service, most of the time I get nothing. Maybe Some kind of tiny tiny AM/FM receiver?


I look up at the sky.


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By cms829
Feb 2, 2012
high e

LOL...thanks! Im talking for extended trips. 1 week plus. Not worried about it on any of the cascade volcanoes, Im talking more remote peaks without much contact to civilization.

Anyways...the dc is certainly hill walking, with the exception of about 100 feet of it, which can be defined as "extreme hill walking" but not particularly climbing by definition. In which case, mostly all mountaineering with the exception of those with pitches of ice requiring tools, is technically walking uphill...


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By Andrew Gram
Administrator
From Salt Lake City, UT
Feb 2, 2012
Andrew Gram

I look at the sky on remote trips as well. You just don't get weather reports when you are in the Andes, Caucasus, etc. Go fast when the weather looks good, batten down the hatches when you start seeing lenticular clouds.


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By superkick
From West Hartford, CT
Feb 3, 2012
Free Solo up hitchcock gully WI3

cms829 wrote:
LOL...thanks! Im talking for extended trips. 1 week plus. Not worried about it on any of the cascade volcanoes, Im talking more remote peaks without much contact to civilization. Anyways...the dc is certainly hill walking, with the exception of about 100 feet of it, which can be defined as "extreme hill walking" but not particularly climbing by definition. In which case, mostly all mountaineering with the exception of those with pitches of ice requiring tools, is technically walking uphill...



untrue statement. All easy mountaineering is technically walking uphill..thats about it. I can name prob 50 walls/faces off the top of my head that require a lot more than technically walking uphill.


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By cms829
Feb 3, 2012
high e

superkick wrote:
untrue statement. All easy mountaineering is technically walking uphill..thats about it. I can name prob 50 walls/faces off the top of my head that require a lot more than technically walking uphill.

huh? explain because to me you just confirmed what I had stated. Anything that requires the use of all four limbs is climbing to me. Anything else, is walking.


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By Gokul
Feb 6, 2012
At the "summit"

Andrew Gram wrote:
Go fast when the weather looks good, batten down the hatches when you start seeing lenticular clouds.


Could you explain that final bit? I've always seen great weather on days that started out with sightings of lenticular clouds. And I've even thought of them as signs of decent weather for the day (barring some wind turbulence in the vicinity of the clouds).


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By Andrew Gram
Administrator
From Salt Lake City, UT
Feb 6, 2012
Andrew Gram

I've found on very high peaks that lenticular clouds are often precursors to getting hit by very strong winds - i've spent some miserable nights trying to keep the tent from blowing away in Argentina, Ecuador, and Russia after observing lenticulars forming around the summit of whatever mountain I happened to be on.


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By cms829
Feb 7, 2012
high e

I dont know. Im no meteorologist but there seem to be a lot of variables when using lenticulars to forecast upcoming weather. Ive taken tons of photos of lenticulars and had clear weather, Ive also witnessed a lenticular whipping around the summint of Rainier like a tornado. Needless to say that night we left at 1 am and was forced to turn around at 13.5. From my observations and experience, a lot of it has to do with the movement of it. If it is not in a circular rotation around the summit, it seems to not have much affect. But if its locked onto the summit, you can be sure its going to create some wicked weather as it collides with the updrafts constantly. Just what Ive witnessed.


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By apeman e
Feb 7, 2012
excellent technique

cms829 wrote:
Screamers have been proven to greatly reduce the amount of force put on the climber and their protection due to a fall.


Oh really? Show us the proof.

I bet you'd be surprised what the current literature suggests. I know I was.


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By J. Broussard
From CordryCorner
Feb 7, 2012
Young Good Free Face, 11b

A good plan
An early start
Plenty of options for increasing the day's length and difficulty (extra credit on the mind)
Lot's of (good) reefer for making friends, inducing a brief coma, or just for hunkering down in the sun or from the elements.


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By cms829
Feb 7, 2012
high e

apeman e wrote:
Oh really? Show us the proof. I bet you'd be surprised what the current literature suggests. I know I was.
Up to a 26% reduction in peak force.
Lol...Nope, not really surprised. They DO decrease peak load. As shown in this extensive test completed by what I would call a fairly reputable company who does not even produce any type of screamer. In other words, They are saying their competition is doing a good job making good products. Doubt that there is any bias in there. Are you surprised? Enough proof?

www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/qclab/qc-l>>>

What literature are you speaking of?


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By apeman e
Feb 17, 2012
excellent technique

Check out these links from Rgold:

"By rgold
From Poughkeepsie, NY
Oct 26, 2009

Here are two discussions that may be of some use. Unfortunately, the links referred to in those discussions seem to be dead now.

www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=323573&tn=0
www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=373584&tn=0

I'd say the bottom line is that they probably can't hurt, but don't expect too much either. The longer the fall, the less effect a screamer can have, so they are most likely to be of use on short falls.

As for testimonials, remember that no one ever goes back and repeats the "experiment" without the screamer, so it is hard to know in any such case what effect, if any, the screamer had. When people do try controlled testing, the effects tend to be relatively minor, but a minor effect might be worth something on marginal pro."

I didn't look at your study, so I'll take your word for the "up to 26% reduction" because I'm certain it's possible that a screamer can reduce a load under the right circumstances. However, on bigger falls which produce much more force than it takes for a screamer to deploy, there is data to suggest that the rope does not "recover" it's dynamic properties immediately after the screamer deploys, and therefore the pro is loaded with a less dynamic rope.

last thought: most people who vouch for screamers 1.) fall, and 2.) screamer deploys, and 3.) pro holds, so 4.) screamers work. That clearly doesn't prove much, which makes it so hard to evaluate the usefulness of screamers in practice.


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By cms829
Feb 17, 2012
high e

Im basing my information on controlled testing. Not someone falling on piece and saying it works or otherwise. The only real world application of a screamer in my opinion is on the first screw or the first 2 placed. Where there is simply not enough rope out to absorb much of the energy, the screamer can act in place of the dynamic rope. I agree that there is absolutely NO need to place them on every screw or every pin. For sure. But they do have their place right off the deck. I dont think they do much to help a weak placement. Although they should, in theory, slightly. However they do act as a buffer. Falling right off the deck places a ton of force on you and your pro due to lack of usable rope to absorb the energy. i find it hilarious that everyone associate screamer with climber that fall often. Thats like saying everyone driving around with an airbag in their car crashes often. Its simply not so. And its a horrible generalization. If a partner of mine clips a screamer...good for him. I dont use em...But that doesnt mean I dont believe they have their place. I dont think there is a need to have 6 of them hanging off your gear loop.

Edit: I read your posts from Rgold on supertopo...and they have no data whatsoever, Just his opinion. I really think you may want to take the 10 minutes to read the testing which Black diamond did, which contains ACTUAL test data, and results, of real world testing. This is completely unbiased testing, as black diamond has nothing to gain by proving a competitors product actually works as it is claimed to. Im still putting my money on the proven data... sorry. This rgold dude may be an awesome climber. May really know his stuff. But his view on screamers is all speculation. And will continue to be, until someone proves the public data wrong. They do have their place.


You may of not realized but I stated much earlier that I dont even own a single screamer. I dont use them. Nor am I in any way shape or form associated with yates. So I have nothing to gain either. Im simply trying to get the CORRECT information out to those who seek it. And not speculation or opinions. I'd like to see someone from "mountain project" or "supertopo", go and tell one of black diamond or petzl sponsored athletes that they might want to take the screamers off their rack, cause theyre bad juju.

I also would be very curious to see the test data proving your theory of rope dynamics and the failure to "recover". When in fact, If the rope has stretched to said "point", its already done its job. You are not going to gain force or momentum after a quickdraw, sling, tree, car, or screamer catches your fall. The ONLY way this could physically happen is if the piece in which caught you (And deployed the screamer) failed. Think about what happens when you fall on a piece of gear and it holds. At any point did your rope stretch, constrict, and then stretch again aside from a slight bounce? No. Same with a screamer. Except that screamer lessened the IMPACT force on your body and gear, greatly. It allows the force to be lessened over a longer period of time, greatly reducing the peak force load. Therefore lessening the force on your body, and pro. The numbers dont lie. Unless someone has tested that theory and proved it right, I would question whether or not that situation is even able to exist real world. Cause I cannot see how it can. I am seriously seriously interested in the data you speak of. Not at all to help prove a point, but because i am genuinely interested in seeing it and learning something new. Any source of that data available?

And ps...26% reduction is not marginal in my book. But I digress.


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By divnamite
From New York, NY
Feb 17, 2012

The Black Diamond study. To Screamer or not to Screamer?

Results: 9-foot Factor 1 Fall on to 1st Piece of Gear


Results: 2-foot Factor 0.36 Fall on to 1st Piece of Gear


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By cms829
Feb 17, 2012
high e

Thanks Diva....that is the data I was speaking of. Cant argue that.


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By superkick
From West Hartford, CT
Feb 18, 2012
Free Solo up hitchcock gully WI3

sure you can...

dont fall


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By cms829
Feb 27, 2012
high e

lol...thats not a very good arguement regarding the potential of a screamer to reduce the peak force of a fall. And if your not falling your not trying hard enough.


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By David Appelhans
From Lafayette
Feb 27, 2012
Imaginate

superkick wrote:
sure you can... dont fall


Why bother with that dumb rope thingy then.


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By superkick
From West Hartford, CT
Feb 27, 2012
Free Solo up hitchcock gully WI3

indeed david...

and cms..saying that if you arent falling you arent trying hard enugh, might be one of the dumbest things ive ever seen written regarding mountaineering.


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By cms829
Feb 27, 2012
high e

superkick wrote:
indeed david... and cms..saying that if you arent falling you arent trying hard enugh, might be one of the dumbest things ive ever seen written regarding mountaineering.

Whos said anything about "mountaineering"? Cause im fairly certain i did not. you've never heard that before?? It's a saying. And I'm fairly certain no one says that pertaining to general mountaineering or lead, especially on ice where falls are completely unacceptable. Look at boulderers, sport climbers, and tr's. Push your limit and learn how to climb at your limit. Obviously this means along the way, your going to take some falls. Are you implying that you don't fall? Ever? Not once? Cause if not I think I want your autograph. The worlds top climbers fall repeatedly. Why? Because they're pushin themselves. I think you need to tell Sharma, Gadd, and Anker your awesome new secret. Cause damn, theyve been doin it wrong this whole time.

I'm not talking about taking a crevasse fall or making a technical error. I'm speaking in terms of the difficultly of the climb. Saying that's one of the dumbest things you've ever heard and implying that I was speaking of mountaineering, is def one of the dumbest replies I've seen yet on this forum. Saying don't fall, is like saying don't get into a car accident, ever. Shit happens. I don't know what you climb but I took maybe 3 falls on toprope this weekend working a new mixed route in the dacks around m7. I guess I'm a shitty climber, or apparently just dumb

and im fairly certain David was not agreeing with you, rather asking you why YOU bother to use a rope, if your motto is...simply...dont fall. If it was that simple....this would be a rather boring sport that to be honest, would not interest me in the least bit.


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By superkick
From West Hartford, CT
Feb 29, 2012
Free Solo up hitchcock gully WI3

why would you not be talking about mountaineering specifically in the mountaineering forum...

I should have known you meant top roping mixed climbs and bouldering...

and I know david wasnt agreeing with me...Thansk for further clarifying that though. I dont use a rope very often besides glacial travel as far as mountaineering is concerned. then again, you are probably one of those people who need a rope team to get up the DC.

go ahead say something else stupid. Then back up your dumb statement by saying you were talking about something else.


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By cms829
Feb 29, 2012
high e

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA Because who would bring screamers on a general mtneering route? Maybe for the ice on Liberty Ridge. LOL I dont even have to directly reply to a post like that. You said it all for me. Carry on. You seem like a real stand up guy. Too bad your in the northeast. I hope I never have to carry your butt out.

And I'll have you know that I have been on the DC twice before, But I didnt have an entire team dude...Two sherpa's was ALL I NEEDED.

Ps...If you would like to continue this discussion you may email me. I dont really enjoy bickering on an internet forum.


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By David Appelhans
From Lafayette
Feb 29, 2012
Imaginate

superkick wrote:
I dont use a rope very often besides glacial travel as far as mountaineering is concerned.


What a silly argument this is. Yes, when you are climbing without a rope screamers aren't going to help you. I would suggest leaving your harness at home too. Yes, on easy terrain it is often safer (faster) to climb without a rope. On harder terrain, meaning mountaineering involving hard for you ice or mixed climbing, if the gear is tiny nuts or screws in suspect ice, a screamer reduces the peak load and therefor may help if you fall. Place it if you want to carry the extra weight for some risk mitigation while ice climbing on a mountaineering route. If you only use a rope to cross glaciers and not for the actual climbing then screamers are obviously useless to you.


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