Weight variance between repeaters and maximum hangs

Looking for some insight from the training gurus out there

Just finished up a hangboard hypertrophy phase consisting of repeaters at a duration of 7 sec hang x 5 sec rest x 5 reps per set. I do this for 3 sets for each grip, 4 grips in total. So a total of 12 work sets in a session. Did 10 workouts in total with 72 hours rest in between each, adding 5 lbs to each workout. Gains slowed around my 9th workout but managed to end the phase adding 45 lbs from my starting point across each grip. Interesting to see how similar this progression was in comparison to some of the earlier hangboard thread posts I was reading between Will S. and Monomaniac.

Up next I will be starting my recruitment phase which usually consists of the typical limit bouldering and campusing. However, being that a lot of my projects this time around are extremely thin and fingery, I am thinking I would like to incorporate maximum single hangs into my plan by switching between these and the campus board workouts I normally do.

Single hangs would consist of one 7 second hang per grip with max weight added with 3 minutes rest between each hang. I would do three sets per grip for 4 different grips.

My question... As to not waste a workout (or two or three) figuring out how much weight to add to elicit a response, does anyone have any personal experience with how much weight they were able to hang for maximum single hangs, in comparison to what they were using for a repeater style workout?

For example, if I am able to hang 45 lbs on a three finger open hand grip from a one pad edge for repeaters, would I be able to hang say around 70 lbs on a single hang protocol?

I realize that there are a lot of different repeater and single hang protocols out there, but maybe someone who has done something similar can point me in the right direction or at least provide some good food for thought.

TipsBeGone wrote:For example, if I am able to hang 45 lbs on a three finger open hand grip from a one pad edge for repeaters, would I be able to hang say around 70 lbs on a single hang protocol?

That is right in-line with the weights I use. The only difference is my Hypertrophy phase consists of pyramids instead of repeaters. I only do a single set of 1RM and try to get the weight as high as possible without failure. I think you'll have a very difficult time doing three sets at that intensity, power just drops off so fast. I might do one rep at 7 seconds and will be lucky to get past 3-4 seconds if I try another.

On another note, it is VERY hard to keep your shoulders engaged and elbows bent with that much weight added. You might want to drop to a smaller edge once you get to +70. Maintaining good form should take priority over stacking on more weights.

Tipton wrote:On another note, it is VERY hard to keep your shoulders engaged and elbows bent with that much weight added. You might want to drop to a smaller edge once you get to +70. Maintaining good form should take priority over stacking on more weights.

He beat me to it. I think Mono advocates for a new/harder hold after +35lbs, over that seems to be pushing the gamut for both injury and climbing-specificity. It's not often than not only is your entire body weight on a hold, but you're required to exert 30-50% more effort than a dead-hang, that would be one hell of a barndoor.

I think my weights are pretty similar, I experimented with it a bit after my HYP phase this time around. Instead of +30 for repeaters, I was more in the +55/60 range for 1-2 reps of max hangs with 10 second rests, and several sets that were minutes apart.

I don't know your projects, but perhaps some locked-off hangs with less weight would help on your thin/fingery moves.

Gave my first single hang workout a shot last night. As both you suggested, it made more since to use a smaller hold rather than using the same holds that I was using for repeaters with a heavy load. Not sure why I wasn't thinking of this before I posted my question?!

A 6mm inch edge seemed to do the trick for both specificity and shoulder health. Depending on the hand position I was adding anything from 10 to 20 lbs and able to fail right around 7 seconds. Although, it did take me a few goes for each hand position to feel what was too little, or too much weight, which was expected. Due to that reason I'm sure I'll need to make a few further tweaks in the workout to come.

I think you'll have a very difficult time doing three sets at that intensity, power just drops off so fast. I might do one rep at 7 seconds and will be lucky to get past 3-4 seconds if I try another.

With 3 to 4 minutes rest between each hang, I seemed to be able to maintain the same weight for 3 sets. Maybe this is a sign that I could have used used more weight. I'll see with the next session.

I don't know your projects, but perhaps some locked-off hangs with less weight would help on your thin/fingery moves.

Do you mean full crimp hangs? If so, yeah I did these as well. I definitely tend to be much less aggressive with the weight used on these though as the stress and injury potential is much higher.

Thanks for the input!

Brendan Blanchard wrote:It's not often than not only is your entire body weight on a hold, but you're required to exert 30-50% more effort than a dead-hang, that would be one hell of a barndoor.

I disagree - for starters you're using two hands when hangboarding so when adding 50% to your bodyweight its likely that each arm is contributing only half of the total. Given a 150 lb person that's only 112.5 lbs per arm...which is a lot less than doing a one handed dead hang.

Using the above example, I can think of numerous circumstances where you would need to hold 75% (112.5 lbs) of your bodyweight on one arm. Roofs with bad feet, hard outside flags, clipping in steep terrain, etc.

If u do a max hang with +70 why not advance to single arm hangs?

5.samadhi wrote:If u do a max hang with +70 why not advance to single arm hangs?

I'm not a big fan , they feel tweaky to my shoulders and it's a pain to keep from rotating sideways. I'll do them occasionally just as a benchmark to see if I have progressed to a smaller hold but this is not part of my workout.

Tipton wrote: I'm not a big fan , they feel tweaky to my shoulders and it's a pain to keep from rotating sideways. I'll do them occasionally just as a benchmark to see if I have progressed to a smaller hold but this is not part of my workout.

Do you do them hanging underneath turned to the side with what weight lifters may call a "neutral grip" wrist position?

In that way I would think they would be LESS tweaky on your shoulders as your shoulders wouldn't have to do that massive external rotation that dual-hand hanging makes you do...

but I have never seriously trained them though (I max out at like 45lb hanging off me with both hands so I'm a ways away!).

I guess the way you get less force through the shoulder with a full-body-weight hang on a single arm ... is to grab the wrist with the other hand and arm.

For those who aren't yet strong enough to hang by only one arm on an "interesting" fingerboard hold ...
Single-arm hangs can also be done by partly supporting body weight -- like on a stool under the fingerboard. If position the support appropriately, can even do overhanging single-hand. (With enough space like under a doorway, radically overhanging single-hand).

In this way you really are putting less force through each shoulder. Whether you also turn your torso to use a more favorable gripping configuration is a separate option.

If you have a pull-up bar mounted under your fingerboard (not difficult to arrange under a doorway), then can have the other arm ready near the bar as a "self-belay" -- so even on a small overhanging hold, you can "take it to the limit" ... and if you slip off, the other hand can save you by grabbing the pull-up bar.

(Supported single-arm hanging is also more realistic for most actual climbing situations, than is two-arm full-body-weight hanging.)

Ken

kenr wrote: if you slip off, the other hand can save you by grabbing the pull-up bar. (Supported single-arm hanging is also more realistic for most actual climbing situations, than is two-arm full-body-weight hanging.) Ken

I'm no expert, but I don't think slipping off while hangboarding is a good idea.

I also don't find a shoulder workout a meaningful component of hangboard training. The finger intensity is key. So I doubt the suggested greater specificity of one arm vs two arm hanging is relevant.

Single-arm hangs can also be done by partly supporting body weight -- like on a stool under the fingerboard. If position the support appropriately, can even do overhanging single-hand. (With enough space like under a doorway, radically overhanging single-hand).

(Supported single-arm hanging is also more realistic for most actual climbing situations, than is two-arm full-body-weight hanging.) Ken

The main problem with using a chair to take off weight is that you don't truly know what is causing failure during your hangs because you can't analyze how much weight your legs are taking away from your fingers and forearms. Without knowing where failure came from, it would be near impossible to get a an accurate understanding of intensity progression through your future workouts.

If you are going to spend the extra time (obviously you'll spend double the amount of time compared to doing two arm hangs) doing single arm hangs, make sure you are at least able to rig up a pulley system with weights so you can know exactly how much weight each hang is being reduced by, this way you can be sure that you are able to track and provide a proper intensity level each and every workout for measurable progression.

Although I personally don't do any single arm hangs in my routine, I can see some benefit... My left arm is about 15% weaker than my right arm. I especially noticed this when I started doing assisted one arm pull up pyramids. So a part of me could see SOME added benefit to single hangs by trying to correct a strength imbalance. Curious if anyone else has noticed a major difference in strength between their left and right arm?

from a logistical standpoint, one of the main drawbacks of doing 1 arm hangs is the amount of time it takes to complete a workout. this depends on the hang/rest times, but in general it is pretty tough to alternate arms, so you end up doing 1 arm at a time, which basically doubles the total time of your workout.

another thing i don't really like about the single arm hangs is that if you are doing them unsupported your body wants to rotate around your shoulder. this can be rough on your shoulders, particularly if they are already in bad shape.

getting back to the original question. my 5 on 15 off 3 rep sets are usually around 20 lbs heavier than my 5 on 5 off 6 rep sets. if i were doing 1 rep max hangs, i would probably start around 35 lbs heavier than my 5 on 5 off 6 rep weight.

i also have weird strength imbalances between left and right. what is really weird, is that it is inconsistent between hold types. for example, my left hand is stronger on open slopers. my right hand is much stronger on certain small jug shapes, my left hand is stronger at .75 camalot thumb stacking, my right hand is stronger at . 5 camalot ring locks, etc.

slim wrote:in general it is pretty tough to alternate arms

Slim, can you elaborate? Never tried myself but I don't understand why you can't go immediately from one arm to the other. Would be nice to hear about your experience if you've tried this.

FWIW, I recently finished an Eva Lopez-like month long repeater cycle on a small campus rung. At the end I was adding 5 lb (8s on 5s off, four reps, one minute in between sets, three sets) and I am doing a max strength cycle now same rung (8s on, one rep, 3 min between sets, four sets) and I'm adding 65 lbs at the moment.

I think some of you guys are getting a bit anal with this tracking progress thing. Just because it's not as easy to track progress doesn't mean it's not a good (or the best) exercise. You don't need clear gains between every session to be progressing overall, just like a company doesn't need to beat its profit estimate every quarter to be successful in the long term. So what if some day you feel like shit & can't PR. Stop being so myopic, try hard anyway, and have a little faith that what you are doing is good for you. End rant...

In a recruitment phase, the total length of your workout is probably 5-10% + the time you spend resting. It shouldn't make any real difference whether you did one arm or two arms at a time. IMO, one arm provides better isolation, as the upper body, core & even the cardiovascular system get taxed quite a bit when you are doing two arms w/ a lot of weights.

5.samadhi wrote: Do you do them hanging underneath turned to the side with what weight lifters may call a "neutral grip" wrist position? In that way I would think they would be LESS tweaky on your shoulders as your shoulders wouldn't have to do that massive external rotation that dual-hand hanging makes you do... but I have never seriously trained them though (I max out at like 45lb hanging off me with both hands so I'm a ways away!).

On the rare occasions I do them, yes it is sideways. I still tend to rotate around a little bit. Personally, I just don't see any advantage to doing them regularly in lieu of two-armed deadhangs.

chuckpr wrote:FWIW, I recently finished an Eva Lopez-like month long repeater cycle on a small campus rung.

Off topic, but I use a small campus rung during my hypertrophy phase and when I transition to campusing, my skin always rips (horizontally, exactly where the rung hits). I spend the majority of my recruitment/power phase gluing my skin back together to wince through another session. I think it's just too much pressure on that spot and will find another hold to replace the small rung next hypertrophy phase. Just a heads up.

chuckpr wrote: Slim, can you elaborate? Never tried myself but I don't understand why you can't go immediately from one arm to the other. Would be nice to hear about your experience if you've tried this. FWIW, I recently finished an Eva Lopez-like month long repeater cycle on a small campus rung. At the end I was adding 5 lb (8s on 5s off, four reps, one minute in between sets, three sets) and I am doing a max strength cycle now same rung (8s on, one rep, 3 min between sets, four sets) and I'm adding 65 lbs at the moment.

if i am trying to do 5 on 5 off (per arm), you end up losing a couple seconds during the transition and it kind of screws things up. it isn't really possible to immediately change arms with no time loss, at least not without cheating a bit.

when i do perform 1 arm hangs i usually hang the 1st arm for 5 seconds, rest/rechalk for 5 seconds, hang the 2nd arm of 5 seconds, etc. but for a set of 6 reps per arm this takes a while. it ends up being a 5 on 15 off configuration, total time of about 2 min per set versus 1 min per set for a similar 2 arm hang.

Tipton, thanks for the heads up. I've gone through a couple phases on the rung and haven't had skin issues yet (rung is mounted on a flat surface for hangboard stuff). I also campus on the small rungs during power training (15deg off vertical). Were you using the small rung on the incut or flat position? I put my rungs in the upside down position so there's no incut. During my first ever campus cycle I was using the large rungs in the incut position and it wreaked havoc on my skin. Once I started using the flat sides and moved from the large to the medium and small Metolius rungs my skin started holding up well (so far...).

This will all be moot when I get my Rock Prodigy Training Center.

Thanks Slim, now I get it.

TipsBeGone wrote:My left arm is about 15% weaker than my right arm. I especially noticed this when I started doing assisted one arm pull up pyramids. So a part of me could see SOME added benefit to single hangs by trying to correct a strength imbalance. Curious if anyone else has noticed a major difference in strength between their left and right arm?

It seems in my last hangboarding cycle I under-trained my left arm by relying on my right for more pulling power, this was mostly driven by a bad left shoulder (mild teninitis/impingement).

Tipton, thanks for calling me on that, that's a little better than my math, and does make sense.

As for a chair method for one arm assisted hangs, the repeatable nature of the exercise is gone because lack of precision. If you were to do it right (not as suggested in Chris Webb Parson's single arm vid), then you would use a pully system to remove weight, and do single arm hangs, which would take some doing, and a lot of experimenting to dial in your weights. This defeats the OP's purpose, but this would be the best and most repeatable way to do it.

On a side note, I can't believe Chris' video passes for good training. When alternating hands but facing the same way to grab his assist cord, the wrist is rotated differently for each hang, not to mention the non-specificity of a one arm "jug" assist. The least he could do is to have an assist cord on each side of the board, but still, lack of specificity makes it hard to repeat and track data. I'm sure stressing each hand to failure every 7s will create gains, but doesn't do much for the dedicated and precise trainer, or the injury prone for that matter.

Back to the OP, for recruitment, shouldn't single max hangs be shorter than 7s? It seems like you're doing HYP again, just with the Eva Lopez method of just under max hangs, for 7-10s, several minutes between single-rep sets. Furthermore, she advocates (with data!) that HYP/Hangboard training should be done initially with large holds, high weight, THEN small holds and low-no added weight. Linkity - Eva Lopez I didn't pay for it, I just read her post and abstract to pull the optimal combination out.

It seems like you're saying you essentially don't need much Power/Recruitment (afterall, low rec means more endurance), but could benefit from more strength. Maybe treating your HYP/Rec phases as more of a HYP1/HYP2 combined phase would be better, starting by progressively adding weight for 4-5 weeks, then lose the weights and progressively shrink your holds for 3-4 weeks. Maybe in the low weight small hold period you would halve your hangboard workouts and supplement with campusing/limit bouldering. This would provide a nice transition from repeaters to harder max hangs, with campusing and limit bouldering mixed in. The workouts would have to change some, moving from 5 rep sets in repeaters, to 1-2 rep sets on your max hangs. If you tried this it would eliminate the extreme excess weight that can cause elbow, shoulder and form problems, and, in theory, train better than just high weights, or just smaller holds. Just food for thought :)

reboot wrote:I think some of you guys are getting a bit anal with this tracking progress thing. Just because it's not as easy to track progress doesn't mean it's not a good (or the best) exercise. You don't need clear gains between every session to be progressing overall, just like a company doesn't need to beat its profit estimate every quarter to be successful in the long term.

This gets another response on it's own. It's not so much the tracking progress so one can "PR" every set and session, it's so that there is a measurable and statistical way to look at long and short term progress. I don't need to beat my workout from earlier in the week, I need to show steady progress, and if I don't see that, I need to do something different. The Andersons advocate progress tracking to decide when they start to peak out on their maximum benefit curve, so that they don't train hard for little reward, but move on to the next phase instead. That has a huge side benefit on it's own.

The other benefit is that the same workout and stress is being applied. I bet if you set a scale 2 feet behind a hangboard and put your feet on it, while hanging on the same holds, you can vary the weight on your feet by upwards of 20-30lbs, even unintentionally. This difference should be unacceptable to someone who is serious about a long term training program. A change in form could cause a serious increase in intensity, increasing the chances of injury, not to mention it's hardly a truly repeatable exercise. If you approach training for climbing casually, then that's fine, but the argument being made here is that training can be, and most likely should be a scientific approach to betterment. It's a different mindset.

Brendan Blanchard wrote: it's so that there is a measurable and statistical way to look at long and short term progress. I don't need to beat my workout from earlier in the week, I need to show steady progress, and if I don't see that, I need to do something different.

And I argue you are trying to control/optimize the 10%. Of all the things you can try to keep constant, there are so many variables that affects your performance from session to session. And if you don't develop an intuitive sense of how much effort you are putting in, you'll still end up over/under-training.

Brendan Blanchard wrote: The Andersons advocate progress tracking to decide when they start to peak out on their maximum benefit curve, so that they don't train hard for little reward, but move on to the next phase instead.

That's their theory & it's worked out well for them. Doesn't mean it's optimal even for them, let alone the rest of us. Thing is a lot of training has very little immediate reward, and it's impossible to attribute your long term success/failure to the specifics of training.