Waimea Perma Draw Discussion
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Many of the draws at Waimea are becoming quite an issue. Between worn through aluminum clipping biners and UV bleached nylon tatter, I think it may be time to open up a discussion of funding Perma Draws from Climb Tech. |
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Does anyone else but me think those climbtech draws are ugly? Couldn't they at least be painted black or something? |
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Mike Anderson wrote:Does anyone else but me think those climbtech draws are ugly?Yes, very ugly. Obviously Rumney is not my home crag, so my voice probably doesn't count for much, but.... Waimea is such a beautiful cliff. Do you guys really want ugly a@@ cable draws all over everything? I think Shagg Crag looks hideous with those cables hanging everywhere. Ugh. |
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i think we would get used to looking at them (or we could paint em) and working with them... they are just new and different... |
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Many of the fixed draws at Waimea are bright colors, so many would see this as an improvement. The rock at Waimea is the same color as steel cable, conveniently. |
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James Otey wrote:Many of the fixed draws at Waimea are bright colors, so many would see this as an improvement. The rock at Waimea is the same color as steel cable, conveniently. The "ugly" argument will also hold little water once someone is injured by failing nylon or getting their rope cut on a sharp draw.Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, these points could be construed as being equally compelling arguments for folks to simply use their own draws, and remove them from routes not actively being projected. That would address both the aesthetic and safety concerns, but it would entail a modest amount of additional effort. I'm not trying to start a flame fest, and I know this is an unpopular notion in some segments of the climbing community, but before permanently fixing a crag, it seems prudent to seriously consider all options and ramifications. Just sayin'... |
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James Otey wrote:The "ugly" argument will also hold little water once someone is injured by failing nylon or getting their rope cut on a sharp draw.Guess what would fix that? Hang your own gear. |
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Well, it didn't take long for this to devolve into a "just hang your own draws" discussion. Maybe the proper forum for this would be through Facebook or through the Google group that was recently set up. That way Waimea climbers can freely discuss Waimea issues. |
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Thanks Jay. I guess the tone of the thread should've been more like, "We are getting Perma Draws, post if you would like to be involved." |
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Jay Knower wrote:Well, that didn't take long for this to devolve into a "just hang your own draws" discussion. Maybe the proper forum for this would be through Facebook or through the Google group that was recently set up.Jay- It was not my intention to "devolve" the discussion, and the presence of voices disagreeing with our own is not in my opinion a "de-evolution", provided those voices are respectful. I certainly hope mine was. As I said, I was playing devil's advocate. It is irrefutable that the arguments being offered in the specific post I replied to could be considered compelling on both sides of this issue depending on one's own bias. I pointed that out, nothing more. It would be a shame if a small subset of people decided such an important question for a crag enjoyed by so many, and so for that reason, I hope you keep the discussion in as public and inclusive a forum as possible. I'll certainly watch with interest, but as I'm not a Rumney local, I'll respectfully step out of it now, having offered my thoughts. Cheers, Derek |
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Speaking of which, did we ever get a date for the meeting? I never saw an update in my mailbox. |
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Although I'm not a "true" local, I consider Rumney my home crag. |
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Sorry Derek. I didn't mean to imply that your opinion doesnt matter. It's just that we went through the whole fixed draw debate recently and I think we're all a little wary of reopening that can of worms. I think most of us see the perm-draw idea as separate from the fixed draw debate. |
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M Sprague wrote:Speaking of which, did we ever get a date for the meeting? I never saw an update in my mailbox. As far as the draws, I'm for anything that would reduce the visual impact. Could they be painted gray or something to get rid of the bright green and some of the shine? Also, will the top quicklinks even fit on the 1/2" glue-in bolts?The CAMP perma-draws could be a good low visual impact alternative. LINK I know they make these with gray slings and the quick links will fit the glue-ins. Oh and the biners clip much better than the climbtech. C. |
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Corsan wrote: The CAMP perma-draws could be a good low visual impact alternative. LINK I know they make these with gray slings and the quick links will fit the glue-ins. Oh and the biners clip much better than the climbtech. C.One of the issues is UV damaged nylon, so these are only a slight step in the right direction. Thanks for the link though it's much appreciated! Mark: It seems as though the company takes custom orders, so if it was an issue we could order them without quick links and buy them from Fixe or something. |
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James Otey wrote: One of the issues is UV damaged nylon, so these are only a slight step in the right direction. Thanks for the link though it's much appreciated!Agreed. Maybe these could be used in sections of the cliff that don't receive much sunlight. e.g. under the big roofs, etc. |
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Jay Knower wrote:Well, it didn't take long for this to devolve into a "just hang your own draws" discussion. Maybe the proper forum for this would be through Facebook or through the Google group that was recently set up. That way Waimea climbers can freely discuss Waimea issues.Easy man, nobody is trying to "devolve" the discussion into a perma versus no perma draw discussion. For the record, I think its great that Mr. Otey is taking the time, money, and effort to try and update the hardware at Waimea. That said, I think that it is more than fair for people to needle you guys little bit for having fixed hardware in the first place, because like it or not, it IS lazy (Waimea is most definitely not so steep and long that fixed gear is a requirement....this ain't the Jailhouse folks). Furthermore, your comment stating that you should take your discussion elsewhere where "Waimea climbers can freely discuss Waimea issues" is unfortunate. Just because you are a local, doesn't mean you own the place and that others don't have a right to comment. |
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Even with steel biners, I bet you would want to replace them before the nylon got weak. Look how fast those fat Fixe steel quikclips wear out.(Obviously they get a lot more wear than quickdraws) I would like to review the facts on UV deterioration though. It's too bad they make the gates bright orange/red on the CAMPs. Aside from possible UV problems, I like the black nylon a lot better than wire myself. |
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Noticed on the Climb Tech website that the components are zinc-plated steel - is there any issue with using these with different types of bolts (stainless, etc)? Mark, you probably know more about this than anyone else around, any reason to be concerned? |
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I'm not a metallurgist, but most of the glue-ins are heavy zinc galvanized steel. |
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Even if UV wasn't a factor, the nylon near carabiner loops tends to fall victim to abrasion, which is another reason cable is the only true permanent solution. |