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Waimea Perma Draw Discussion

Original Post
James Otey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 785

Many of the draws at Waimea are becoming quite an issue. Between worn through aluminum clipping biners and UV bleached nylon tatter, I think it may be time to open up a discussion of funding Perma Draws from Climb Tech.

climbtechgear.com/p105/Cabl…

There was a bit of an uproar surrounding the fixing of routes at Shagg crag, but judging by the sentiment of the RCA and enforcement by the Nation Forest Service, I think the issue would be approached more liberally.

I believe that it would be a responsible gesture for Waimea stewardship to gather a bunch of locals to chip in whatever they can to make Waimea a safer place to climb.

This would start by gathering a list of willing locals and deciding which routes should be tackled first (Techno, Whip Tide, Suburban).

I know many people are already on board to chip in cash. Lee, Jay, Kayte, Tom, and Emile have expressed interest. I'm sure we could find many more via word of mouth.

Fixing a 9 bolt route such as Techno would be around 170, while a longer route such as Whipe Tide would be more like 240.

Shall we discuss?

Mike Anderson · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Nov 2004 · Points: 3,265

Does anyone else but me think those climbtech draws are ugly? Couldn't they at least be painted black or something?

Not to mention they are hard to grab and impossible to rodeo clip when my sorry @ss can't get up a route....

J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
Mike Anderson wrote:Does anyone else but me think those climbtech draws are ugly?
Yes, very ugly.

Obviously Rumney is not my home crag, so my voice probably doesn't count for much, but.... Waimea is such a beautiful cliff. Do you guys really want ugly a@@ cable draws all over everything? I think Shagg Crag looks hideous with those cables hanging everywhere. Ugh.
Lee Hansche · · Allenstown, NH... and a van… · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 24,335

i think we would get used to looking at them (or we could paint em) and working with them... they are just new and different...

i am all for it, we just need an organized way to collect donations... any ideas?
at Vertical Dreams we have a donations bucket on the desk to raise money for the RCA... for larger donations like what we would hope for with this, perhaps folks could send money to the gym and we could collect it and order stuff... i would have to OK this with the owner but i think he'd be cool with it...

James Otey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 785

Many of the fixed draws at Waimea are bright colors, so many would see this as an improvement. The rock at Waimea is the same color as steel cable, conveniently.

The "ugly" argument will also hold little water once someone is injured by failing nylon or getting their rope cut on a sharp draw.

Derek Doucet · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 66
James Otey wrote:Many of the fixed draws at Waimea are bright colors, so many would see this as an improvement. The rock at Waimea is the same color as steel cable, conveniently. The "ugly" argument will also hold little water once someone is injured by failing nylon or getting their rope cut on a sharp draw.
Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, these points could be construed as being equally compelling arguments for folks to simply use their own draws, and remove them from routes not actively being projected. That would address both the aesthetic and safety concerns, but it would entail a modest amount of additional effort. I'm not trying to start a flame fest, and I know this is an unpopular notion in some segments of the climbing community, but before permanently fixing a crag, it seems prudent to seriously consider all options and ramifications. Just sayin'...
J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
James Otey wrote:The "ugly" argument will also hold little water once someone is injured by failing nylon or getting their rope cut on a sharp draw.
Guess what would fix that? Hang your own gear.
Jay Knower · · Plymouth, NH; Lander, WY · Joined Jul 2001 · Points: 6,036

Well, it didn't take long for this to devolve into a "just hang your own draws" discussion. Maybe the proper forum for this would be through Facebook or through the Google group that was recently set up. That way Waimea climbers can freely discuss Waimea issues.

James Otey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 785

Thanks Jay. I guess the tone of the thread should've been more like, "We are getting Perma Draws, post if you would like to be involved."

Can you link me the google group?

Derek Doucet · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 66
Jay Knower wrote:Well, that didn't take long for this to devolve into a "just hang your own draws" discussion. Maybe the proper forum for this would be through Facebook or through the Google group that was recently set up.
Jay-

It was not my intention to "devolve" the discussion, and the presence of voices disagreeing with our own is not in my opinion a "de-evolution", provided those voices are respectful. I certainly hope mine was.

As I said, I was playing devil's advocate. It is irrefutable that the arguments being offered in the specific post I replied to could be considered compelling on both sides of this issue depending on one's own bias. I pointed that out, nothing more.

It would be a shame if a small subset of people decided such an important question for a crag enjoyed by so many, and so for that reason, I hope you keep the discussion in as public and inclusive a forum as possible. I'll certainly watch with interest, but as I'm not a Rumney local, I'll respectfully step out of it now, having offered my thoughts.

Cheers,

Derek
M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

Speaking of which, did we ever get a date for the meeting? I never saw an update in my mailbox.

As far as the draws, I'm for anything that would reduce the visual impact. Could they be painted gray or something to get rid of the bright green and some of the shine? Also, will the top quicklinks even fit on the 1/2" glue-in bolts?

Candemir Orsan · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 0

Although I'm not a "true" local, I consider Rumney my home crag.

I usually refrain from opinion posts on forums, but I think in this case it's important enough:
I completely agree with Derek that this particular topic deserves an open discussion rather than an open-shut case.

Personally, I actually think that perma-draws are a good idea on Waimea given the increased traffic and popularity of the sport.

These routes will be seeing way more wear-and-tear and the Red River Gorge have been providing real life examples of things than can go wrong with fixed gear, etc. A long term solution is a great idea.

Having said that, I think it's important to involve the USFS and RCA in the discussion directly. Jeopardizing access is not worth the risk.

Candemir.

Jay Knower · · Plymouth, NH; Lander, WY · Joined Jul 2001 · Points: 6,036

Sorry Derek. I didn't mean to imply that your opinion doesnt matter. It's just that we went through the whole fixed draw debate recently and I think we're all a little wary of reopening that can of worms. I think most of us see the perm-draw idea as separate from the fixed draw debate.

Candemir Orsan · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 0
M Sprague wrote:Speaking of which, did we ever get a date for the meeting? I never saw an update in my mailbox. As far as the draws, I'm for anything that would reduce the visual impact. Could they be painted gray or something to get rid of the bright green and some of the shine? Also, will the top quicklinks even fit on the 1/2" glue-in bolts?
The CAMP perma-draws could be a good low visual impact alternative.
LINK

I know they make these with gray slings and the quick links will fit the glue-ins. Oh and the biners clip much better than the climbtech.

C.
James Otey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 785
Corsan wrote: The CAMP perma-draws could be a good low visual impact alternative. LINK I know they make these with gray slings and the quick links will fit the glue-ins. Oh and the biners clip much better than the climbtech. C.
One of the issues is UV damaged nylon, so these are only a slight step in the right direction. Thanks for the link though it's much appreciated!

Mark: It seems as though the company takes custom orders, so if it was an issue we could order them without quick links and buy them from Fixe or something.
Candemir Orsan · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 0
James Otey wrote: One of the issues is UV damaged nylon, so these are only a slight step in the right direction. Thanks for the link though it's much appreciated!
Agreed. Maybe these could be used in sections of the cliff that don't receive much sunlight. e.g. under the big roofs, etc.
J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
Jay Knower wrote:Well, it didn't take long for this to devolve into a "just hang your own draws" discussion. Maybe the proper forum for this would be through Facebook or through the Google group that was recently set up. That way Waimea climbers can freely discuss Waimea issues.
Easy man, nobody is trying to "devolve" the discussion into a perma versus no perma draw discussion. For the record, I think its great that Mr. Otey is taking the time, money, and effort to try and update the hardware at Waimea. That said, I think that it is more than fair for people to needle you guys little bit for having fixed hardware in the first place, because like it or not, it IS lazy (Waimea is most definitely not so steep and long that fixed gear is a requirement....this ain't the Jailhouse folks).

Furthermore, your comment stating that you should take your discussion elsewhere where "Waimea climbers can freely discuss Waimea issues" is unfortunate. Just because you are a local, doesn't mean you own the place and that others don't have a right to comment.
M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

Even with steel biners, I bet you would want to replace them before the nylon got weak. Look how fast those fat Fixe steel quikclips wear out.(Obviously they get a lot more wear than quickdraws) I would like to review the facts on UV deterioration though. It's too bad they make the gates bright orange/red on the CAMPs. Aside from possible UV problems, I like the black nylon a lot better than wire myself.

cjdrover · · Watertown, MA · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 355

Noticed on the Climb Tech website that the components are zinc-plated steel - is there any issue with using these with different types of bolts (stainless, etc)? Mark, you probably know more about this than anyone else around, any reason to be concerned?

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

I'm not a metallurgist, but most of the glue-ins are heavy zinc galvanized steel.

James Otey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 785

Even if UV wasn't a factor, the nylon near carabiner loops tends to fall victim to abrasion, which is another reason cable is the only true permanent solution.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
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