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Waimea Perma Draw Discussion
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By James Otey
From NH
Jun 29, 2011
Urban Surfer, Rumney. <br /> <br />Photo by Lee Hansche

Many of the draws at Waimea are becoming quite an issue. Between worn through aluminum clipping biners and UV bleached nylon tatter, I think it may be time to open up a discussion of funding Perma Draws from Climb Tech.

www.climbtechgear.com/p105/Cable-Draw---22kN-%252F-5%2C000-l>>>

There was a bit of an uproar surrounding the fixing of routes at Shagg crag, but judging by the sentiment of the RCA and enforcement by the Nation Forest Service, I think the issue would be approached more liberally.

I believe that it would be a responsible gesture for Waimea stewardship to gather a bunch of locals to chip in whatever they can to make Waimea a safer place to climb.

This would start by gathering a list of willing locals and deciding which routes should be tackled first (Techno, Whip Tide, Suburban).

I know many people are already on board to chip in cash. Lee, Jay, Kayte, Tom, and Emile have expressed interest. I'm sure we could find many more via word of mouth.

Fixing a 9 bolt route such as Techno would be around 170, while a longer route such as Whipe Tide would be more like 240.

Shall we discuss?


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By Mike Anderson
From Dayton, OH
Jun 29, 2011

Does anyone else but me think those climbtech draws are ugly? Couldn't they at least be painted black or something?

Not to mention they are hard to grab and impossible to rodeo clip when my sorry @ss can't get up a route....


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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Jun 29, 2011
Bucky

Mike Anderson wrote:
Does anyone else but me think those climbtech draws are ugly?


Yes, very ugly.

Obviously Rumney is not my home crag, so my voice probably doesn't count for much, but.... Waimea is such a beautiful cliff. Do you guys really want ugly a@@ cable draws all over everything? I think Shagg Crag looks hideous with those cables hanging everywhere. Ugh.


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By lee hansche
Administrator
From goffstown, nh
Jun 29, 2011
getting to the last jug before the top out

i think we would get used to looking at them (or we could paint em) and working with them... they are just new and different...

i am all for it, we just need an organized way to collect donations... any ideas?
at Vertical Dreams we have a donations bucket on the desk to raise money for the RCA... for larger donations like what we would hope for with this, perhaps folks could send money to the gym and we could collect it and order stuff... i would have to OK this with the owner but i think he'd be cool with it...


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By James Otey
From NH
Jun 29, 2011
Urban Surfer, Rumney. <br /> <br />Photo by Lee Hansche

Many of the fixed draws at Waimea are bright colors, so many would see this as an improvement. The rock at Waimea is the same color as steel cable, conveniently.

The "ugly" argument will also hold little water once someone is injured by failing nylon or getting their rope cut on a sharp draw.


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By Derek Doucet
Jun 29, 2011

James Otey wrote:
Many of the fixed draws at Waimea are bright colors, so many would see this as an improvement. The rock at Waimea is the same color as steel cable, conveniently. The "ugly" argument will also hold little water once someone is injured by failing nylon or getting their rope cut on a sharp draw.


Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, these points could be construed as being equally compelling arguments for folks to simply use their own draws, and remove them from routes not actively being projected. That would address both the aesthetic and safety concerns, but it would entail a modest amount of additional effort. I'm not trying to start a flame fest, and I know this is an unpopular notion in some segments of the climbing community, but before permanently fixing a crag, it seems prudent to seriously consider all options and ramifications. Just sayin'...


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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Jun 29, 2011
Bucky

James Otey wrote:
The "ugly" argument will also hold little water once someone is injured by failing nylon or getting their rope cut on a sharp draw.


Guess what would fix that? Hang your own gear.


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By Jay Knower
Administrator
From Campton, NH
Jun 29, 2011
Technosurfing, Rumney. Photo by Seth Hamel.

Well, it didn't take long for this to devolve into a "just hang your own draws" discussion. Maybe the proper forum for this would be through Facebook or through the Google group that was recently set up. That way Waimea climbers can freely discuss Waimea issues.


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By James Otey
From NH
Jun 29, 2011
Urban Surfer, Rumney. <br /> <br />Photo by Lee Hansche

Thanks Jay. I guess the tone of the thread should've been more like, "We are getting Perma Draws, post if you would like to be involved."

Can you link me the google group?


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By Derek Doucet
Jun 29, 2011

Jay Knower wrote:
Well, that didn't take long for this to devolve into a "just hang your own draws" discussion. Maybe the proper forum for this would be through Facebook or through the Google group that was recently set up.


Jay-

It was not my intention to "devolve" the discussion, and the presence of voices disagreeing with our own is not in my opinion a "de-evolution", provided those voices are respectful. I certainly hope mine was.

As I said, I was playing devil's advocate. It is irrefutable that the arguments being offered in the specific post I replied to could be considered compelling on both sides of this issue depending on one's own bias. I pointed that out, nothing more.

It would be a shame if a small subset of people decided such an important question for a crag enjoyed by so many, and so for that reason, I hope you keep the discussion in as public and inclusive a forum as possible. I'll certainly watch with interest, but as I'm not a Rumney local, I'll respectfully step out of it now, having offered my thoughts.

Cheers,

Derek


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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Jun 29, 2011
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.

Speaking of which, did we ever get a date for the meeting? I never saw an update in my mailbox.

As far as the draws, I'm for anything that would reduce the visual impact. Could they be painted gray or something to get rid of the bright green and some of the shine? Also, will the top quicklinks even fit on the 1/2" glue-in bolts?


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By Candemir Orsan
Jun 29, 2011

Although I'm not a "true" local, I consider Rumney my home crag.

I usually refrain from opinion posts on forums, but I think in this case it's important enough:
I completely agree with Derek that this particular topic deserves an open discussion rather than an open-shut case.

Personally, I actually think that perma-draws are a good idea on Waimea given the increased traffic and popularity of the sport.

These routes will be seeing way more wear-and-tear and the Red River Gorge have been providing real life examples of things than can go wrong with fixed gear, etc. A long term solution is a great idea.

Having said that, I think it's important to involve the USFS and RCA in the discussion directly. Jeopardizing access is not worth the risk.

Candemir.


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By Jay Knower
Administrator
From Campton, NH
Jun 29, 2011
Technosurfing, Rumney. Photo by Seth Hamel.

Sorry Derek. I didn't mean to imply that your opinion doesnt matter. It's just that we went through the whole fixed draw debate recently and I think we're all a little wary of reopening that can of worms. I think most of us see the perm-draw idea as separate from the fixed draw debate.


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By Candemir Orsan
Jun 29, 2011

M Sprague wrote:
Speaking of which, did we ever get a date for the meeting? I never saw an update in my mailbox. As far as the draws, I'm for anything that would reduce the visual impact. Could they be painted gray or something to get rid of the bright green and some of the shine? Also, will the top quicklinks even fit on the 1/2" glue-in bolts?


The CAMP perma-draws could be a good low visual impact alternative.
LINK

I know they make these with gray slings and the quick links will fit the glue-ins. Oh and the biners clip much better than the climbtech.

C.


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By James Otey
From NH
Jun 29, 2011
Urban Surfer, Rumney. <br /> <br />Photo by Lee Hansche

Corsan wrote:
The CAMP perma-draws could be a good low visual impact alternative. LINK I know they make these with gray slings and the quick links will fit the glue-ins. Oh and the biners clip much better than the climbtech. C.


One of the issues is UV damaged nylon, so these are only a slight step in the right direction. Thanks for the link though it's much appreciated!

Mark: It seems as though the company takes custom orders, so if it was an issue we could order them without quick links and buy them from Fixe or something.


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By Candemir Orsan
Jun 29, 2011

James Otey wrote:
One of the issues is UV damaged nylon, so these are only a slight step in the right direction. Thanks for the link though it's much appreciated!


Agreed. Maybe these could be used in sections of the cliff that don't receive much sunlight. e.g. under the big roofs, etc.


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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Jun 29, 2011
Bucky

Jay Knower wrote:
Well, it didn't take long for this to devolve into a "just hang your own draws" discussion. Maybe the proper forum for this would be through Facebook or through the Google group that was recently set up. That way Waimea climbers can freely discuss Waimea issues.


Easy man, nobody is trying to "devolve" the discussion into a perma versus no perma draw discussion. For the record, I think its great that Mr. Otey is taking the time, money, and effort to try and update the hardware at Waimea. That said, I think that it is more than fair for people to needle you guys little bit for having fixed hardware in the first place, because like it or not, it IS lazy (Waimea is most definitely not so steep and long that fixed gear is a requirement....this ain't the Jailhouse folks).

Furthermore, your comment stating that you should take your discussion elsewhere where "Waimea climbers can freely discuss Waimea issues" is unfortunate. Just because you are a local, doesn't mean you own the place and that others don't have a right to comment.


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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Jun 29, 2011
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.

Even with steel biners, I bet you would want to replace them before the nylon got weak. Look how fast those fat Fixe steel quikclips wear out.(Obviously they get a lot more wear than quickdraws) I would like to review the facts on UV deterioration though. It's too bad they make the gates bright orange/red on the CAMPs. Aside from possible UV problems, I like the black nylon a lot better than wire myself.


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By cjdrover
From Somerville, MA
Jun 29, 2011
Taken at MWV Icefest 2014.

Noticed on the Climb Tech website that the components are zinc-plated steel - is there any issue with using these with different types of bolts (stainless, etc)? Mark, you probably know more about this than anyone else around, any reason to be concerned?


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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Jun 29, 2011
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.

I'm not a metallurgist, but most of the glue-ins are heavy zinc galvanized steel.


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By James Otey
From NH
Jun 29, 2011
Urban Surfer, Rumney. <br /> <br />Photo by Lee Hansche

Even if UV wasn't a factor, the nylon near carabiner loops tends to fall victim to abrasion, which is another reason cable is the only true permanent solution.


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By Jake D.
From Northeast
Jun 29, 2011

J. Albers wrote:
Easy man, nobody is trying to "devolve" the discussion into a perma versus no perma draw discussion. For the record, I think its great that Mr. Otey is taking the time, money, and effort to try and update the hardware at Waimea. That said, I think that it is more than fair for people to needle you guys little bit for having fixed hardware in the first place, because like it or not, it IS lazy (Waimea is most definitely not so steep and long that fixed gear is a requirement....this ain't the Jailhouse folks). Furthermore, your comment stating that you should take your discussion elsewhere where "Waimea climbers can freely discuss Waimea issues" is unfortunate. Just because you are a local, doesn't mean you own the place and that others don't have a right to comment.



Fixed draws have been up at Waimea for as long as I can remember. This situation is HOW not IF. IF they are going to be there then finding the best way HOW to do it is what they are going for. Also starting from square one with the biners with all round stock steel will help avoid having sharp edges like happens with non round aluminum biners.

Having cable draws should be a lot nicer than having random nylon of unknown age and wear on routes that WILL have fixed draws on them one way or another.


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By Jay Knower
Administrator
From Campton, NH
Jun 29, 2011
Technosurfing, Rumney. Photo by Seth Hamel.

I never thought that my comments would generate so much flak. I just thought that this is a local issue that should be handled by people who actively climb at the crag. I was also trying to keep the discussion out of the ethical sinkhole that is the fixed draws discussion.

My 2 cents? The situation at Shagg was a mess, and I would hate to see that replicated at Waimea. Most of the bolts at Shagg were adorned with two foot long cables covered with blue plastic. Very unsightly. If we could get shorter cables, and get a gray covering, I think it would actually reduce the visual impact, as Mark suggested. If Climb Tech doesn't offer gray-colored plastic coverings, then maybe an offer to buy thousands of dollars of their draws would be impetus for them to begin offering rock colored coverings.

Albers, I'll belay you on your draw-hanging ascent of China Beach, or Livin Astro, or Urban Surfer. I'll even lower you patiently as you try to clean your draws from those routes... Sh*t, I got drawn into the sinkhole.


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By Eric8
From Framingham
Jun 29, 2011

I don't think anyone is advocating for putting draws on routes that don't already have them. Is that correct? If that is the case I would think either black or grey draws would make the crag look better then the assorted rainbow draws up now.

Anyway I climb at Waimea often enough to contribute some money for this project.


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By Peter Beal
From Boulder Colorado
Jun 29, 2011

I am definitely not a local but I think that Rumney is neither steep enough nor tall enough to require fixed draws. The Shagg Crag situation was unfortunate to say the least. But if locals aren't cleaning draws after working or sending routes, then safer options are probably better. Of course a few New England winters might start rotting the cables next. Better in my view to promote a higher standard and support keeping the routes free of anything but truly fixed hardware.


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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Jun 29, 2011
Bucky

Jay Knower wrote:
Albers, I'll belay you on your draw-hanging ascent of China Beach, or Livin Astro, or Urban Surfer. I'll even lower you patiently as you try to clean your draws from those routes... Sh*t, I got drawn into the sinkhole.


ahhhh....sinkhole sucking me in....

Jay, I'm honestly not trying to be a rabble-rouser here. If in my initial posts I came across as such (or unfriendly for that matter), I apologize. To clarify my perspective a bit....

I think fixed draws are overdone most places. For instance, the home crag that I frequent the most is totally chained up. It is completely unnecessary because although the routes are 130 feet and overhanging, you can clean them when lowering. Do I clip them? Yes. Would I prefer to put up my own draws? Yes. Despite my disagreement with their presence, do I and/or my partners replace worn biners to help with crag upkeep? Yes. In short, I try to be a pragmatist.

I do understand that some routes are a total bitch to clean (some are maybe even impossible without seconding the route) and for these routes, I am fine with fixed gear. However, I think fixed gear is ugly and more often than not, purely present because of laziness. And IMHO, laziness is not a good reason to fix a whole cliff. If I can't hang the draws on a route because it is too hard, then perhaps I should pick a different route, eh? I think a great way to work a route is to go bolt-to-bolt as the final warmup before trying to redpoint....this is a perfect time to hang the draws.

I guess the ideal situation would be that those routes that truly "need" fixed gear get it, while those that have fixed gear purely for convenience get stripped. I like the idea of updating hardware (again, thank you Mr. Otey, Jay, etc. for putting your time and effort into replacing hardware), but the idea of buying $2000 worth of cables to fix a whole cliff seems like a potentially dangerous precedent to set. Jay, I have confidence in your judgement when implementing fixed gear. However, most folks don't have good judgement, and then you end up with what happened at Shagg. I think that influential locals have an opportunity to try and set an example for others to follow. What I think would be a total bummer would be for new climbers, young kids etc., to see my local crag totally fixed and then run up to Shuteye Ridge in the backcountry Sierra and chain the whole place up because, well, it is "standard practice." All I am suggesting is to be conservative with the fixing.

Also, thanks for the belay offer, though I don't think I will be trying Livin' Astro anytime soon...China providing plenty of a$$ thumping for one trip. Have a good day and good luck raising the necessary funds to update the hardware.


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