Indian Creek

After commenting on the top-rope-induced erosion at the ledge on P1 of Elephant Man, I realized that there another culprit wearing the rock at the Creek. Taped hands. Before I continue, let me state that I am not saying "never tape." Most of you wouldn't listen anyway. What I am saying is taping encourages people to drag/slide their hands inside the crack instead of placing them to jam. I have done this when I used to tape and I continue to see it with many "tapers". Look at Supercrack. I know that just plain climbing these things causes wear and I don't plan to stop climbing at the Creek, ever. Let's minimize the change so that all the popular climbs don't become flared off-widths. Improve your climbing ability and reduce wear on the inside of cracks by placing your jams and not shuffling them. At least I'm not accusing anyone of mild chipping - or am I?

signed, Ben the rock nazi and almost purist.

Wow. I had no idea that Indian Creek was the aid climbing capital of the world. But I guess it's true, everytime I've been there (5 times, although I still have no idea how to jam), 95% of the people there are aid climbing.

Seriously though what bugs me is not so much IC climbers, but tower climbers. I mean, any tower route worth it's salt will have a chimney pitch or two, and you always see these damn tower climbing vets wearing clothes! Sheesh--some people have no ethics. Aid climbers!

No but really Ben, we could all strive for this idiotic purity, or we could save some wear and tear our hands so we could actually do some substantial climbing beyond a day or so (especially those of us who go to the desert for a week!). I'm sure if I went to Indian Creek and did one route and then went home (say, Incredible, Generic, or Super Crack), my performance would be no different whether or not I was wearing tape. Heck, on thin hands cracks, I don't wear tape, just so I can get a better fit--but that makes it all the more necessary that I tape on the hand and fist stuff, so I can last more than a day while still pushing myself.

Glad to get the positive feedback from you guys. I couldn't find where I said "don't tape", though I was definately giving tapers a hard time. It appears that my comment wasn't read in its entirety and what was read seemed to be taken too seriously by AC. I'd like add that there are several people whom can climb at the Creek for a week without taping while keeping their hands free of gouges. These same people also say they climb better without it. Try it and see for yourself. Practice, practice, practice...

Even if you are a wanna be "purist" like our buddy Ben here, you should have the common sense to not talk shit about other climbers. Im not sure what you mean by "purist" anyway, all I can see is "pure" bullshit. Don't tell us lesser climbers to "practice, practice", climb for yourself, not so you can spray about how cool you are for climbing some stuff sans tape. I guess a rope and a rack helps soothe your mind on lead as well, so that must be aid. Hell, it's not a real onsight if your not blindfolded, right pureboy??

Justin Dubois

No it doesn't explicitly state "don't tape", but that statement is pretty much implicit in the various monologues on this page. The people I know who don't tape at the Creek also onsight solid-5.12 there, so 5.10-11 hand cracks feel pretty easy to them and they can place their hands without too much gobying.

Assigning a link between taping and the widening of cracks at I.C. is plain ridiculous. A climber at their limit on I.H.C. or Supercrack will thrash their hands about to get a solid jam whether they wear tape or not. What you are really railing against is over-use of the climbing resource, solutions for which would not be pleasent for everybody and would completely change the climbing experience at Indian Creek (removing anchors from routes, forcing people to top out would reduce traffic on routes, preserving crack-size yet would convert the Creek from what is nearly a sport-climbing area into an adventure climbing area).

I have scars on the back of my hands from pushing myself, learning to crack climb in my less-experienced days at the Creek. So if its OK with you, I'll continue to tape and still consider it free climbing.

So I guess this is the official spot to slag off on this punter Ben. Bro some friends of mine have met you at the crag, and the official word is your an idiot who likes to slag their partner, boost your own ego, down rate things noone cares about, and talk shit to climbers around you. My bro onsighted Whimsical Dreams at Turkey Rock and was forced to endure your diatribe about how some 5.9 you jerked off on was much more "sustained" than whatever. I'm no purist, I tape if my hands hurt, hang if I'm tired, and weld pitons when I'm gripped.

Dude get a clue, if you have trouble assimilating to society and making real friends then all of this cyber spray makes sense. Your trail of blatantly bullshit comments on climbingwhatever.com is causing a stench stronger than the urine smell on Zodiac's grey circle.

I would love to meet you at the crag. My name is Brent, I'm short fat and bald, will be laughing, sliding my jams, and eroding the granite of Lumpy Ridge for the next few.

I welcome slag virtual or real anytime,Laughing fun fat idiotBrent

There's no denying that I'm a prick. I apologize for upsetting so many of you.

Hope your buddy enjoyed the picture I took of him on Whimsical Dreams and posted on climbingboulder. Congrats to him for the onsight - looks like a stellar route.

Ben can definitely rub people the wrong way, but he is an excellent partner. We were kidding around - he certainly wasn't slagging on me that day, and I was far more self deprecating than he was insulting. I don't recall him saying much to your crew aside from congratulating your boy for the great effort on WD and recommending some other climbs to them - maybe they didn't like their wilderness experience at a nearly roadside crag interrupted?

For what its worth, Ben can climb for a week straight at his limit without taping and come away with minimal damage. Its impressive, and a fair number of Indian Creek denizens have recommended the practice as well. I try to climb without tape as much as possible(though I do "aid climb" when anywhere near my limit), and I've found it to really help me think about how I set my jams and it has definitely made me a better climber.

Anyway, here's hoping that we can all climb and have a beer out in the desert soon - Creek season is starting shortly.

If tape is considered aid, then so are shoes. Perhaps Supercrack still awaits a free ascent!

Thanks for putting it succinctly George. Now, using these very stringent criteria, I don't know about Supercrack, but Incredible Hand Crack has received at least one "free ascent", tainted merely by the use of one bag of chalk!

But was it naked though? Surely, wearing clothes is aid too!

I should clarify...first of all, I re-read my comment and realized that it sounds like I am refering to myself. It was actually a friend, and no, he was not naked. And, alas, that certainly constitutes "aid climbing", as the clothed right side of the body scums against the right wall of the corner for considerable extra purchase. Now if it were me, it would truly be a free ascent despite any clothes, because I would be liebacking, inasmuch as I have no crack technique.

Tape is aid and so are cams or rock shoes.

Could anybody tell me if it is a good idea to climb in IC in June ?... Or is it too hot ??

It is kind of fun to do about one moderate route a day without tape, more than that and you'll need a skin graft. I figure using my incredibly strong arms and shapely legs to help me climb is also aid. I guess I'm a cheater

Calling myself a moderate climber would be a stretch. I've led a couple of 10s at the creek and followed maybe 20 10s and 11s. I taped after my first day on the first trip, but on all other trips not. I learned how to jamb that first day with a moderate snow funnelling down generic and forming a small pile at the bottom. I think most people tape because they are thrashing and climbing way over thier heads. Hee hee hee

I remember reading a study once that said that people who don't tape are overcompensating for other shortcomings (yes, boys, I am talking about your manhood). I think it was in the New York Times. I tape because it's comfortable. I am also a chick who onsights 12 at the creek, so keep talking your smack "moderate climber anonymous coward" - I think you're just jealous of those pulling harder than you and are trying to justify your ineptitude by saying "well, I may not pull very hard, but at least what I can climb, I do without tape. This makes me better than you, even if you climb harder than me!" Dream on; give the machismo and the thinly-veiled excuses a rest.

It's amazing the bad attitudes abound. What happened to the fun days at the Creek when everyone was gunning for everyone else. Going to the creek used to about having fun, running into familiar faces, and enjoying cracks. Now it's competitive, once you get the the ground there is always that person that has to let you know they lead it with half the gear, twice as fast, and that particular climb is really easier than the book says. Let's all be adults, enjoy the place for the beauty and excitement, don't blemish the experience by gloating and spraying, save it for the campfire and your buddies.

There's an easy way to get away from the posers and brats at Indian Creek: MY GOODNESS, PEOPLE, GET THE HELL AWAY FROM SUPERCRACK BUTTRESS!! There's a million Supercrack's at the Creek. I've never understood why everyone flocks to that one cliff, when the Creek is unfathomably huge! Personally I get as far away from that buttress as I can.

I have an actual question:

There's a route on Battle of the Bulge, between Crack Attack and the Big Baby (closer to Crack Attack) that's not in my guidebook. It's about 50-60' long it's a black left facing corner/open book (wider than 90 degrees) It starts thin fingers, then gets tighter and tighter until you have to stem and use some pods. I'm pretty certain it's in the 5.12-12+ range. Does anyone know what this is? Thanks

Well, it seems true that if you want a half dozen opinions, just ask two climbers. Guilty of flakeyness myself. The only comment I have is in regard to human waste: use the smear technique as you would above treeline. If you drop anchor in the morning, it will be dried out and blowing away by lunch.

Given the amount of traffic at the Supercrack/Donnelly/Battle zoo area, and possibly other popular areas as well, do NOT heed this last A.C.'s advice! Bury it!

And then there are those crags at which if you just crap, someone's dog will have eaten it by noon and left one of their own in it's place (snicker).

"...it will be dried out and blowing away by lunch."

...where it will then blow into a creek and rehydrate. Or come back to life should it rain or snow. Or become a tasty snack for some scavenging critter. Great idea!

Just bury it! Conventional wisdom does change from time to time regarding bury vs. smear, but in high-use areas like IC you should always bury.

Actually, burying it does not allow waste to break down. Of course since animals, especially dogs, don't dig, there is no way it could be consumed by some desert beast. The point is that if the smear technique is used, it will dry out and break down into it's component parts. The UV light will kill anything alive in there (i.e bacteria, etc.) Bury, smear, or otherwise, shitting at the crag is disgusting.

I asked about camping areas at Indian Creek on the Climbingboulder.com mailing list, and thought I'd add the reply posts, since the intro to Indian Creek description has poor descriptions of the various places. First reply was from Steve "Crusher" Bartlett:

• ***************1. A month ago the road was rough, but easy enough in my 4x4 truck. There wereseveral passenger car / low clearance vehicles parked out there, so with some care and patience this works for most vehicles. Drove it in a 2WD vehicle last fall (Prius, very low clearance), and it seemd ok. You can expect to bottom out a little perhaps, but not badly enough to do any damage.[add-on by Friso: This is regarding the Bridger Jack's area. It is reached by turning left on the second dirt road that is past Dugout Ranch, I believe. If you are on the correct road, you should soon encounter a low level water crossing, followed by an odd intersection where a hard right will take you to Bridger Jack's camp area.]

• ***************I was at the super bowl about 3 weeks ago. It is very accessible to lowclearance vehicles. Another tip on finding it to add to Crusher's. Rightbefore the turn there is a short but very noticeable, slightly curving distinct downhill section of the road. The gate to the superbowl isimmediately after that. There was also a small nature conservancy/BLM IndianCreek brochure box located at the gate to help identify it. Don't be detered byall the RV-type vehicles you see initially. Stay to the left of where theypark and you'll find the climber camping.****************

How is sandstone for trad?

I've been spoiled on the solid granite of S. Platte for most of my trad and I've heard some bad stuff about the sandstone of Indian Creek.

Is this true? How safe is Indian Creeks rock. Can I take a 20 footer or will my cam rip out of the wall

Sandstone is perfectly safe for trad, and the rock at Indian Creek is especially good quality. If you climb on sandstone that is sandy or loose there's always a possibility that a piece will rip. But you won't find much rock like that at the Creek.

For trad, I personally prefer sandstone, simply because sandstone is much softer and won't cut you up as bad as granite. My knuckles last much longer in sandstone, especially since I hate tape gloves.

I was just wondering about summer weather, is it too hot to climb, or is it possible to find relief in the shade on some of the walls? Also, a little bit more specific: what are the best months, ok months, and worse months to climb at indian creek. I appreciate the Help.

Maui Postma

The best months at the Creek are fall and spring March through mid-May and mid-September through November. The unfortunate thing about the Creek for summer climbing is that most of the walls face South. However, there are a few excellent walls which get plenty of shade: Reservoir Wall and 4x4 Wall come to mind as the best.

If taping your hands is aid climbing, so is using climbing shoes. Don't worry, Ben - we still love you...

Looks like Ben agrees with you AC: http://images.climbingmoab.com/misc/album/141.small.jpg

Andy, what are you saying?! That all the climbs Ben's done with shoes are aid climbs? That, from now on, he intends to climb only barefoot??

No, just pointing out a funny picture of Ben leading an Indian Creek crack barefoot.

Not taping is possible. Tape is Aid?? A discussion that sounds more like hairsplitting to me, my clothing has easily provided more friction in a corner than tape has in a crack. A point that seems lost in the tape/no-tape thread is the fact that once you get a size wired you REALLY CAN climb without tape. You don't have to be a crack guru or desert grunger, it just has to be a size that you can climb in a relaxed and precise manner. It's a surprising and confidence building experience; I recommend anyone who goes to IC regularly give it a try on their favorite route. Maybe TR first. Yes, the impact of each person's visit is very real and obvious in the desert; whether they walk lightly, pack out their crap, and place every jam perfectly ...or not. Best to be aware, minimize your impact every chance, and be grateful to be here now.-Cindy

just wondering if anybody has info on a couple routes we did this weekend. the two routes we did were side by side, and they were between dusty trails to nowhere and coyote essence.

the left hand route went up the right side of a flake on great hands and then burrows into a sweet squeeze chimney. the squeeze is capped by a hand crack that quickly tapers to a lieback to get to the anchors. (5.9 until layback topout, maybe 10b, approx 80 feet).

the right hand route (about 15 feet to the right) was pretty low angle. it started with a finger lieback to get onto a small pedestal. then it was low angled ringlocks and tight hands for a ways. finally, there is kind of an angled slot/recess with tight hands (this part is steeper). (maybe 10b or so, approx 60 feet?)

thanks for the info. both routes were excellent.

Well I know of one almost "free" ascent of Supercrack. An Australian guy led it a couple years ago without shoes and I dont think his clothes touched the rock... Dave Scott

based on the extent to which many of you get tweaked over a little ribbing, it seems that some of you do indeed have thin skin and need to tape.

N

hey, i am planning on coming out to the creek this sept or oct for a few weeks. how is it hooking up with partners out there? i've got about 25 cams and a penchant for stout.

Tape schmape...some fine grit sandpaper glued to the back of my hands always works wonders for me.

"Face holds at the Creek are about as common as soap is in France"...What kind of an a...... writes that ?? Maybe a (climbing) trip across the Atlantic would open some minds !

the kind that signs his name, has 1 or 2 (stinky) frog friends (ac, I bet you like that one, too), and likes to piss people off. some folks need to lighten-up (or light one up).

two questions, about Indian Creek, one which wall is Diedier's new climb on, from switzerland with love? i am going to the creek this weekend and just want to check out the route, next...what wall is the ringel on? thanks for the help!

This conversation is ridiculous. If you are all such seasoned Indian Creek climbers, why don't you answer some of the questions people ask about the routes? Too busy spraying?

I started trad climbing recently and I actually thought that trad climbers would be more mature and laid back than sport climbers. I've never seen even the most agro sport climbers being so immature.

If you want to climb at an untouched area, go somewhere else. Don't hang out at one of the most famous crack climbing areas on earth and bitch about wear and tear.

Why don't you answer some of the area related questions? Isn't that what these sites are for, or were they just created for people who have nothing better to do than argue about taping hands. I see why so many sport climbers don't want to have any part of trad climbing.

Question! Might anyone recall the names of the two newish routes just left of the Optimator (yes, on the Optimator Wall)? The farthest left is an easier 5.12 in a right-facing corner, I believe containing thw word 'red' in its short name, and the other begins with a bouldery start. Anyway, they are fun routes, if you haven't made it over there, and for whatever reason it's nagging me that I can't recall the names.

whats the deal with climbing on the reservoir wall? shutdown or what??

Just talked to Heidi about Resevoir in May '06. She would prefer that people stay on the left side of the wall, basically out of view of the ranch.

Unrelated from the tape discussion:

Pack out human and dog waste. Don't even bury it, just take it out with you. Get a big PVC pipe with a screw-top lid, put the stuff in plastic bags, put the bags in the tube and dispense elsewhere. It would help to keep access open.

A note for 1st ascensionists from an ARI volunteer who has replaced stacks of anchors in the creek.

Some guidelines to consider for new anchors:

1. Use deep half inch bolts when possible (a power drill drills a better hole, and even though it is heavy on the hike, it can drop in a 4 1/2 X 1/2 inch hole in about 15 seconds).

2.Three eighths is your second choice.

3. Leave the baby angles at home. I have cleaned these antiquated things with embarrassingly little effort. They are difficult to place, anyway, even by experienced drillers (hence the ones sticking out an inch from the wall). Besides, they are more expensive than expansion bolts.

4. Use steel anchors. Webbing is visually gross and wears out quickly becoming unsafe. There are many cheap options at your local hardware store.

5. Camo the anchors. Every hardware store carries a brown primer that is exactly the color of windgate.

5. Make the link to the rope replaceable without having to replace the entire setup (ie: screwlinks or old biners).

A major complaint against climbers in indian creek and across the country is the visual impact of bolts and anchors, so this is an access issue and a safety issue.

Finally, those of you who carry a bolt kit for beefing up anchors, consider carrying enough gear to replace the entire thing with steel hardware and good bolts. This will avoid creating those confusing rats nest anchors that we always see out there. If one out of every one hundred parties replaced one anchor, the place would be cleaned up in no time.

Thanks
Chris Kalous
Climbing Magazine ARI volunteer.

PS: If you put up routes with single bolt anchors, you're cheap and lazy.

Yes! Everyone, please pack out your poop, there are too many people using the creek for catholes. Wag bags are available at the donnelly canyon parking area.

NEED PHOTOS FOR SECOND EDITION OF INDIAN CREEK GUIDE
We're in the process of a major update to the Indian Creek guidebook and would like to replace some of the photos. We're in need of high resolution digital photographs. Also, if you have new route information or updates, it would also be appreciated. You can send low res versions or contact me at fred@sharpendbooks.com. Thanks, Fred Knapp (Manager, Sharp End Publishing).

Hi, I got busted on the 211, the road going into Indian Creek Corridor. I was speeding and got searched. Dont speed and just say no to search. Be careful on these Utah backroads, spred the word.