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URGENT: Don't Let Muir Valley Close!
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By bernard
From birmingham, al
Dec 5, 2012
near trapps, Shawangunks, NY, 2008
thomas wisdom wrote:
Maybe they should stop building bridges everywhere and hanging perma draws. That would save a bundle.


operate this area as a fee area.....a la Shawangunks

an earlier post quotes that $92k spent by the owners in 2010. Does rock climbing require this kind of infrastructure.....or require that it be provided for free? What kinds of costs are these?

FLAG
By todd w
Dec 5, 2012
thomas wisdom wrote:
Maybe they should stop building bridges everywhere and hanging perma draws. That would save a bundle.


-The steel draws are donated, and they are put up by volunteers. Read this: www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=13270

-The "bridges" (to use the term loosely) are often just a single plank of wood. Some are more elaborate. Again, donations + volunteers. There is one concrete & gravel bridge that was made, as I understand it, with the help of grant money. It ensures that critically injured climbers can be extracted safely and quickly. It saves the lives of people like you. No joke.

-Lastly, Muir sees over 100,000 visits every year (and growing). Muir can't charge a penny (...it's a legal thing in Kentucky). All they ask is that people sign a waiver and donate a buck or two to keep it open.

But I suppose talking shit about them in their hour of need helps, too.

Thanks, Thomas "Wisdom", from Colorado.

FLAG
By bernard
From birmingham, al
Dec 5, 2012
near trapps, Shawangunks, NY, 2008
still not understanding the $92k in 2010 or the source of costs, being that a lot of it is provided by volunteer/donation.....but the figure cited could be erroneous. And 100,000 in a year sounds unscientific as well.....but there is obviously impact that voluntary efforts cannot meet. Maybe shelter the property in a recreational land trust that could possibly be exempted from fee prohibition. The way it is currently run does not seem sustainable. Seasonal closures to mitigate impact is another alternative, if impact is where all this cost is coming from. Reduce amenities such that climbers are responsible for themselves. Are the owners compelled to provide infrastructure to facilitate rescue/emergency response?

FLAG
By tw160504
From fort collins, co
Dec 5, 2012
Muir valley is an exceptional climbing area that would sad to lose. As for an entrance fee, why would people want to pay an admission fee when there are other areas just as good nearby? This might hurt more than it helps.

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By Price
From SLC, UT
May 6, 2013
Any Chance we can get a sticky for "Don't let Castle Rock, ID close"?

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By David Stephens
From Spokane WA.
Nov 21, 2013
Sport Climber
What a fantastic place!! We donated 40 bucks. A dollar a day is not much to ask too climb at a place like this. We were told less than 1 in 40 climbers donate! This should be a no-brainier. If ya climb there pitch in.

Thank you, Muir Valley

FLAG
By Woodchuck ATC
Nov 21, 2013
Rock Wars, RRG, 2008
I''m so sad I couldn't afford to go back down there this coming week, to do trail work in Muir, to donate time, to enjoy a Thanksgiving dinner at Miguels for the close of the season and to dump lots of cash into the tip jar at Migs for the great workers. Just have to do the online donation as usual. Look forward to the new improved valley entrance trail next spring!!!

FLAG
By Matt Roberts
From Columbus, OH
Nov 21, 2013
Hittin' Miguel's with the new Chimps in tow
The $92k number is from Rick & Liz themselves. So is the 1 in 40 number. IIRC, the annual sum of donations to MV and FOMV is about $10k-$15k. As far as the visitor numbers, they actually have a very good system for estimating the number, Rick summarizes it on the forums on redriverclimbers, I would argue that it would be hard to beat that system short of an actual enumeration.

As far as how the money is spent, I'd venture to guess a large part of it is in construction and maintenance of the parking lots and the road on the valley floor. Which is a huge plus, and has almost certainly saved lives. Remember, Lee and Wolfe counties are not Yosemite. The EMTs will not leave the road. If someone takes a fall climbing in the RRG, they have to be evacuated to the nearest road that an ambulance can fit down. At Muir, Rick and Liz not only make sure that the road is always accessible to ambulances, but MV actually has a semi-organized rescue team, with a litter and backboard available on-site. If you take a bad fall at the PMRP, for example, good luck getting to the road. In fact, the only reason that the EMTs in the county serving the PMRP have a litter is because Rick donated it.

As for the fee-charging issue, unless you are an attorney who is familiar with the outdoor recreational statutes in the state of Kentucky, please avoid pontificating. The law is clear. No fee=very low liability. Fee=high liability.

Rick and Liz are both very, very smart people who make very reasoned decisions. Maybe not everyone agrees with their decisions, but then don't climb there. Go climb at the PMRP or MFRP and be happy. But there's no reason to attack them for providing a really wonderful venue for climbing in the Red.

FLAG
 
By David Stephens
From Spokane WA.
Nov 23, 2013
Sport Climber
Matt Roberts wrote:
But there's no reason to attack them for providing a really wonderful venue for climbing in the Red.


+1

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By Woodchuck ATC
Nov 24, 2013
Rock Wars, RRG, 2008
Thank you Matt for an excellent summary. Yes, the road conditions are a major part of the work and money spent. I've seen trucks of gravel arrive for work to be done, (by Rick on his own, moving the gravel into place) seen on many a trip to Muir and I'm not there more than 2 or 3 five day visits a year! Again, I'm so very sorry I can't get down there this coming holiday week to do trail work for them, and to enjoy a wonderful and thankful holiday together with great people.

FLAG
By Jared Moore
From Tahoma, CA
Dec 19, 2013
Cover
It's upsetting and frustrating to know that only ~ 1 of 40 climbers donate after climbing at Muir Valley. This is such a wonderful place, and the Webers are such nice nice nice people. If this area did close, some of the other crags at the Red would definitely be in trouble, or threatened. Let's hope it never comes to that.

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By bernard
From birmingham, al
Dec 19, 2013
near trapps, Shawangunks, NY, 2008
i think you might have mistaken my curiosity with an actual attack. Anyway....100,000 a year is roughly 300 people a day, every day. I've never visited.......but it must be mighty crowded.

Land trusts for recreational purposes.....or for habitat protection.....or species protection, etc, are common throughout the United States. While statutes and administrative practices vary from state to state, i would presume there is potential for placing the land in a protective trust and have the trust solicit donations for operation and maintenance.

The National Community Land Trust Network establishes land trusts in KY and throughout the US.....and is headquartered in Lexington, KY. If you are friends with the owners, please share the link

www.cltnetwork.org/About-Us/Who-We-Are

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By Matt Roberts
From Columbus, OH
Dec 19, 2013
Hittin' Miguel's with the new Chimps in tow
Bernard,
While I am sure you meant well, anybody can solicit donations. Friends of Muir Valley is in the process of becoming a 501c3 for that purpose. But the creation of a land trust does nothing to change the standard of liability. In Kentucky if you charge admission, you are held to a much higher standard of liability. Putting the land in a trust only changes the defendant in lawsuits. There is no alternative to simply appealing to the better instincts of climbers, which is how this thread started.

Matt

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By Sumbit
From My house
Dec 19, 2013
Friends of Muir Valley has recently had the 501c3 application approved.

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By Sumbit
From My house
Dec 19, 2013
Bernard, the CLT network is designed to provide land for affordable housing. I can't see how this would help Muir Valley. The valley is already a nature preserve.
The Kentucky Recreational Use statutes are clear: donations ok, fee use area huge liability

FLAG


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