Tying the ends of the rope to your harness while rappeling...
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Recently I have been setting up my rappels as normal except I am clove hitching/tying the the two ends of the rope into a large carabiner then clipping that to my belay loop or gear loop. Is there a reason NOT to do this? |
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The downside I see is efficiency on long rappels. Pulling the ends of the ropes up just to clip to your harness at every rappel would be a pain. And then the second would presumably to do as well (2X the wasted time). But if it makes you feel safer and you're not trying to climb fast, there's no reason not to. |
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Jordan thanks for the input. To clarify the most common way we have been doing this is tying the ends off and then throwing the remaining rope coil as you normally would. This way tying the knot/clove to your harness is really the only added step. |
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Tying the rope to your harness might not allow the rope rotate while you rappel. Do you notices a difference in rope kinking while you rappel? I used to tie the end of the rope together during rappels but noticed the rope kinking more often. Now I tie stopper knots at the end of the rope which allows the ropes to rotate independent, reducing the kinks. |
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Weston I have been preaching this for years and people don't seem to get how simple and safe this method is, there is no good argument I have ever heard for not doing it, this is a method that saves lives |
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matt c. wrote:Tying the rope to your harness might not allow the rope rotate while you rappel. Do you notices a difference in rope kinking while you rappel? I used to tie the end of the rope together during rappels but noticed the rope kinking more often. Now I tie stopper knots at the end of the rope which allows the ropes to rotate independent, reducing the kinks.Yep, this is the main issue. Normally rapping will help to get rid of twists in the rope and straighten it out, but if the ends are tied to something the twists are just pushed down the rope and it may end up getting really kinky toward the bottom of the rap. Obviously this is only an issue if the ropes are twisted to begin with, and it's not really a safety concern, but in my mind, one of the benefits of rapping is that it helps to unkink my ropes. |
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It is a very common way of doing things. |
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David Coley wrote:Most raps are a lot less than a rope length if you are using 60m ropesMaybe in the UK, but on this side of the pond, most raps are a full rope length so twisting can be a pretty annoying issue. |
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I would never tie the ropes to my harness. And I would never tie the ends together. As folks have said twisting ropes are a big issue. If you are concerned about the ropes going sideways put them in a rope bag and rap down with them in the bag feeding out rope as needed. Canyoneers do something similar but for different reasons. Otherwise just tie a knot in the end of each rope so the can do their thing as one goes down. |
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I'm with Allen. I just knot the ends and take measures when the conditions call for it. That's me. Your you. Your not gonna die from a twisted rope. Good thread. |
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slevin wrote: With a clove hitch any concern that it's not a hard knot at the end of the rope (i.e. your system isn't really closed)? Any concern clipping your rope ends into a non-weight bearing gear loop?You have never trusted a clove to hold as much weight as a knot? Considering that they will never be weighted this should not be an issue. |
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matt c. wrote:Tying the rope to your harness might not allow the rope rotate while you rappel. Do you notices a difference in rope kinking while you rappel? I used to tie the end of the rope together during rappels but noticed the rope kinking more often. Now I tie stopper knots at the end of the rope which allows the ropes to rotate independent, reducing the kinks.This |
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Mike Brady wrote: You have never trusted a clove to hold as much weight as a knot? Considering that they will never be weighted this should not be an issue.Of course I have. However, considering the entire backup for the rappel is a clove hitch on a carabiner at the end of the rope, and precisely because it will not be weighted and remain cinched tight under body weight, I would tie a hard knot if I ever employed the OP's system (which would be rarely if ever). My point is: if you take the time to tie something, make it bombproof. A clove hitch at the end of a rope, which can potentially migrate if it is not solidly set, is not closing the rappel system (like a stopper knot or hard knot) and hence, in my opinion, is not bombproof. |
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Like others, the issue with fixing rope ends to belay loop is not allowing twists/coils to spill off the rope ends. Have had to deal with some pretty time-consuming snarls when we've done this. |
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slevin wrote: and precisely because it will not be weighted and cinched tight under body weight,Good point. |
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its not till you have had to reascend the pitch because the rope became so twisted that you realize how bad an idea it is to tie the ropes together or to a common point ... |
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Craig Childre wrote: Your not gonna die from a twisted rope. Good thread.twisted ropes easily lead to stuck ropes there was a recent fatal accident where a party got a rope stuck and had to reascent ... the leader fell and blew the anchor apart having to reascend a rappel only line (not the climb) can be quite dangerous |
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kennoyce wrote: Maybe in the UK, but on this side of the pond, most raps are a full rope length so twisting can be a pretty annoying issue.Yes you got the point.. |
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Connecting the ends of the rap lines back to the rappeller hasn't worked for me; I've had too much kinking on long rappels. In a party of three, the Stone hitch can be used the way the canyoneers use it, which is that two people rap more or less at the same time, one on each strand. This can save a lot of time if there are multiple rappels. It isn't a classic simul rap because the strands are fixed, so there are no issues about one person getting on or off the rappel before the other. The third person rappels double-strand as usual. Of course with this method you'll want stopper knots at the end of both strands for the first two rappellers. |
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Lots of good experiences and info here! To add to this ONLY the first person does this. I haven't had any crazy amounts of kink and as soon as I get to the station the ends twirl out, they will also get a reset when the rope is pulled. Like I said I have been doing this for the past couple months without issue. I do see the plus side to a single knotted end on the pull side. |
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weston bierma wrote:Lots of good experiences and info here! To add to this ONLY the first person does this. I haven't had any crazy amounts of kink and as soon as I get to the station the ends twirl out, they will also get a reset when the rope is pulled. Like I said I have been doing this for the past couple months without issue. I do see the plus side to a single knotted end on the pull side.on lower angle slab they might not "twirl out" ... the friction of the rope on the slab often prevents the rope from untwisting .... this includes those raps that have a lower angle top and then gets a bit steeper to the end theres been several times where the slab traps the twists ... effectively making it impossible to pull the rope i remember once where this guy from the rockies tied his ends together ... when the twists got stuck on the slab he said "well it never happens out there" ... i retorted "do you guys even have lower angle friction slabs there?" ... i had to lead back up what you can get away with higher angle raps, sometimes doesnt work with lower angle high friction raps especially if there are features for stuff to get trapped in ;) |