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Tying into rope through carabiner
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By boulderkeith
From Boulder, CO
Jul 19, 2013
Rope management at the anchors is pretty trivial once you get some practice with it... the rope can be draped with incrementally shorter loops during the climb in such a way that it is a one-motion 'flop' to get the right end ready for the next leader. Even if you stack it onto a ledge, we're talking about a single motion (pancake flip) to get the right end ready for re-leading. Furthermore, you should be anchored with the rope (clove hitch into master point) for multipitch climbs, not a daisy chain or leash. dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/how-...


Keenan,
I haven't always found the flip methods works and find it particular difficult with twins. But perhaps I haven't given it enough practice so I'll take your suggestion and see what I can do with it.

Daisy chains: I don't think daisys should be used for personal anchors for a multitude of reasons. I'm talking about either a no

Not trusting your personal leash with body weight: I'm not talking about dogging moves clipped to a quickdraw. I'm talking about standing on a belay ledge clipped to an anchor centerpoint with a personal anchor. If you can generate a FF1 in this scenario, you are doing it wrong. You should not 'fall' onto an anchor regardless of how you are tied to it.

You might be interested in the products on this blog:
theverticaldance.blogspot.com/...

Or the technical discussion on this blog:
nasakoski.com/2010/09/personal...

But I want to say that I really appreciate the inclusion of informed and useful technical links in your response. That is a constructive response and I would upvote it if the mproject forum was not built on year 2000 tech.

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By boulderkeith
From Boulder, CO
Jul 19, 2013
mike sheridan wrote:
This is one of the worst threads I've seen. Ok let me break it down for you intro level climbers making your way out of the gym and into the big kid world. #1; the idea is to eliminate points of failure in your system! Therefore, you tie directly into your harness. #2; the idea of making it easy to get on and off rope is for carnival walls. #3; nylon is dynamic on your harness and your rope, a carabiner is not. #4; if on tr or lead and you're belaying your partner and taking in slack the carabiener can move and be gate loaded or side loaded, it's weakest point, usually 7kn, do you know what that means? #5; get a professional lesson or stay in the gym!


Mike, #4 is spot on and exactly why a lot of people on this thread think using a carabiner to clip in is wrong.

Unfortunately, I don't agree with point #3 and think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of where energy absorption in the dynamic rope belay system come from.

#3: Nylon objects have strongly varying degrees of dynamics. Harnesses are not particularly dynamic. One of the reasons that people can break daisy chains or dyneema slings attached to their harness is because the harness does not meaningfully contribute to the dynamic system. There seems to be a misconception that involving steel in the system somehow removes dynamic absorption. Just as the steel biner on your quickdraw does not negate the dynamic energy absorption of your rope, neither would a carabiner on the climber end.

In fact, the type of belay device and any movement of the belayer have a much great impact on the amount of force that is generated during a fall. If you use a gri gri, that is potentially the most dangerous element of your system.

Check out this link:
allrat.com/PDF_Files/forcesinl...

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By boulderkeith
From Boulder, CO
Jul 19, 2013
bearbreeder wrote:
do you belay off your tie in loops? in a high factor fall you belay loop will see a whole SHIETload of force ... makes no sense to insist on to scream about belay loops on the climber side without screaming about em on the belayers side as well inspect your gear ... and retire it when needed ... if you cant do that you shouldnt be climbing belay loops ARE redundant if you loop at the construction youll see it ;)


Bear breeder,

If you are climbing on a dynamic rope, none of these things should see a shitload of force:
- your belay loop
- your body
- the carabiner and piece catching the fall
- and the falling climber and his various widgets.

That's the whole point of the dynamic rope.

To pick a rope at random, a Beal Diablo 10.2 mm should, by the UIAA test (which is a relatively severe fall), only impact your harness 8.3 kN. Yes, as the rope ages, that number will go up but then most falls are not as severe as UIAA falls (IIRC FF 1.7).

That's a not a trivia amount of force but it is an amount of force our bodies, harnesses, and protection absorb well.

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By bearbreeder
Jul 19, 2013
boulderkeith wrote:
Bear breeder, If you are climbing on a dynamic rope, none of these things should see a shitload of force: - your belay loop - your body - the carabiner and piece catching the fall - and the falling climber and his various widgets. That's the whole point of the dynamic rope. To pick a rope at random, a Beal Diablo 10.2 mm should, by the UIAA test (which is a relatively severe fall), only impact your harness 8.3 kN. Yes, as the rope ages, that number will go up but then most falls are not as severe as UIAA falls (IIRC FF 1.7). That's a not a trivia amount of force but it is an amount of force our bodies, harnesses, and protection absorb well.


which is my point exactly ...

use 2 opposed lockers on the clip in from the fig 8 bight to your belay loop and it wont fail

its THAT simple ... except on MP

;)

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By Syd
Jul 19, 2013
bearbreeder wrote:
use 2 opposed lockers on the clip in from the fig 8 bight to your belay loop and it wont fail


I agree.
I have seen a single locking biner fail with a beginner in a gym. The fellow almost hit me when he fell 16 feet, onto his back. He had clipped in, in some fashion but obviously not correctly. He detached from the rope but the biner wasn't broken.
Two biners reduces the chance of screw ups.

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By Mark Pilate
Jul 20, 2013
And no biners reduces the chances of failure even further...

This thread is now like a two week old banana --squishy and gathering flies. Let's put a stake in it and move on to other esoterica (or better yet, erotica)

1. The OP was using a single biner (locker or not matters little). Dangerous idea and lazy. Should be no argument

2. Other practices of festooning your belay loop with additional biners may mitigate the cross-load concern, but then also start to negate the original purpose - quick changeovers

I'll bet 8/10 times while Bearbreeder is still fiddle-fucking with stuck gates on his opposed double lockers, I'll have tied in correctly, led the pitch, and be jerking on the rope for him to hurry his ass up.

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By bearbreeder
Jul 20, 2013
Mark Pilate wrote:
And no biners reduces the chances of failure even further... .



i dont think lynn hill or john long used a biner when they screwed up their tie ins ... never mind any of us less mortals ;)

Mark Pilate wrote:
2. Other practices of festooning your belay loop with additional biners may mitigate the cross-load concern, but then also start to negate the original purpose - quick changeovers I'll bet 8/10 times while Bearbreeder is still fiddle-fucking with stuck gates on his opposed double lockers, I'll have tied in correctly, led the pitch, and be jerking on the rope for him to hurry his ass up.



how long does it take YOU to clip in 2 lockers ... maybe it would take you that long =P

theres a time and place for everything ... ill repeat it again so that even YOU understand ... theres no REALISTIC way youre anymore likely to die off 2 opposed lockers than a regular tie in

its that simple ...

;)

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By 20 kN
Administrator
From Hawaii
Jul 20, 2013
bearbreeder wrote:
i dont think lynn hill or john long used a biner when they screwed up their tie ins ... never mind any of us less mortals ;) how long does it take YOU to clip in 2 lockers ... maybe it would take you that long =P theres a time and place for everything ... ill repeat it again so that even YOU understand ... theres no REALISTIC way youre anymore likely to die off 2 opposed lockers than a regular tie in its that simple ... ;)

I have climbed with John Long and numerous other professional of former-professional climbers and can say that climbing 5.14 does not make you a safe climber. Some of the sketchiest people out there are guys who climb really hard. They get some ridiculous notion that because they have been in the game so long that there is no way "it could happen to me," and so they get lazy and cut corers. I would bet that John Long did not execute a partner check in accordance with the gym's regulations when he got injured. If he did, his partner would have caught the issue. Also, I suspect that if someone did a formal study on what type of climber is least likely to get injured from a "noob mistake," advanced climbers would not top the list. My guess is it would be the intermediate class because they are experienced enough to know right from wrong, but not so experienced that they have become lazy and take short cuts.

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By Holyshootdude
Aug 8, 2013
It's very common to tie in two lockers with a figure8 on a bite when leading on walls in blocks, so the leaders rope always can be on top.. Avoids reflacking every time .. Also it's used to tie in the middle of the rope with a butterfly, especially occurring on glacier travel..

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By ze_dirtbag
From TBD
Aug 8, 2013
cottonmouth
do you cats re-tie the fig on a bight each time? i'm a tie in kinda guy, but whatever tickles your pickle. i guess the only thing in my feeble mind is the surface area to impact force ratio of a rounded carabiner(or 2) as opposed to 2 3/4" webbing loops if you fall on the same knot a few times without switching up the impact points every now and then.

just my $0.02

feel free to educate me

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By Mark Pilate
Aug 8, 2013
Thought this horse was a skeleton by now, but its a slow day....
Glacier travel is not in the issue ball park (no one cares how/if the middle guy ties in --if at all)

but I'd wager that my partner and I could untie and retie just about as quick as you and your partner can fiddle with locking biners. At least quick enough to make any perceived value of using biners moot. Especially if you get any grit in your gate screws and have sweaty hands (never happens on a wall, I know). Plus I'd wager again that you are using some sort of locking set of D's and that 20% of the time you look down, your rope is crossloading your gates....maybe not YOU (cuz you obviously have it together), but its happening to somebody using this technique.

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By bearbreeder
Aug 8, 2013
ze_dirtbag wrote:
do you cats re-tie the fig on a bight each time? i'm a tie in kinda guy, but whatever tickles your pickle. i guess the only thing in my feeble mind is the surface area to impact force ratio of a rounded carabiner(or 2) as opposed to 2 3/4" webbing loops if you fall on the same knot a few times without switching up the impact points every now and then. just my $0.02 feel free to educate me



its fine ... any rope (or belay loop) in good condition will handle the forces just fine ... ropes dont break

despite all the pontificating and mumbo jumbo ... this is the most relevant document on the matter

theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/...

as to "cross loading" ... there a reason why you use TWO opposed lockers

for where this application is most commonly used .. ie, top roping ... the forces involved are absolutely minimal

even on lead i challenge anyone here to tell me how two properly locked carabiners will fail

;)

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By Mark Pilate
Aug 10, 2013
Last post on this topic and then I shut up and go climb for a few weeks....but can't resist a few last words to BearBreeder here....

1. As for "pontificating", seems you are wearing red shoes and a pointy hat on this thread as well as any....

2. That UIAA doc you cite is not exactly a ringing endorsement for using biners. It essentially says "Don't do it, but if you're dumb enough to do this, at least use double lockers"...

3. Don't care about top-ropers or glacier walkers. Outside the scope of argument here and "Ther gonna die" anyway

4. A point not in the UIAA doc and one lost on many (including yourself) is that even with opposed double lockers, you can still cross load the gates. They are still cross-loaded between the belay loop and rope -just oppositely loaded. Only safety benefit is you now have two gate pins between you and death instead of one.

5. Seems pretty clear to me that the few seconds (maybe) of time saving is not worth the additional risk (however "small" it may be)....but to each his own

its THAT simple

;)


(couldn't resist the plagiarism)

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By ChefMattThaner
From Lakewood, co
Aug 10, 2013
ducking ropes at Copper
wivanoff wrote:
I personally wouldn't lead tied in like that. That said, page 30 of "The Complete Guide to Rope Techniques" (Revised Edition) by Nigel Shepherd shows tying in exactly as you describe. I've seen it in other published sources, too. I've seen groups use a carabiner tiein for TR. Some people who tie into the middle of the rope with an Alpine Butterfly clip in with a locking 'biner or two. Let me ask you this: How do people tie in at gyms that have "auto belay" devices like Trublue? autobelay.com/trublue-auto-bel... It's with a locking carabiner clipped to the belay loop. IMO, "best practice" is direct tie in with the rope. Are you gunna die from this? I doubt it. I bet it's just fine for top roping or following - especially if you use two carabiners. Edit: Now we'll wait for all the "me too" posts. LOL




When it comes to auto belay devices you should still be clipping that biner through both tie in loops and this is OK to have a metal (non dynamic) piece in your system is because those systems don't actually arrest your fall, they simply decelerate you which requires exponentially less force.

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By wivanoff
Aug 10, 2013
High Exposure
chefMatt wrote:
When it comes to auto belay devices you should still be clipping that biner through both tie in loops and this is OK to have a metal (non dynamic) piece in your system is because those systems don't actually arrest your fall, they simply decelerate you which requires exponentially less force.


My questions were rhetorical to get the OP to think and arrive at proper conclusions on his own. To respond to your statement, let's see what one manufacturer writes...

TruBlue Autobelay instruction manual page 20:

"NEVER CLIMB WITHOUT BEING CORRECTLY ATTACHED
Ensure the carabiner is attached to belay loop of the
harness and the latch is fully closed and the gate engaged
before starting to climb. Failure to do so can result in serious injury or death."

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By bearbreeder
Aug 10, 2013
Mark Pilate wrote:
Last post on this topic and then I shut up and go climb for a few weeks....but can't resist a few last words to BearBreeder here.... 1. As for "pontificating", seems you are wearing red shoes and a pointy hat on this thread as well as any.... 2. That UIAA doc you cite is not exactly a ringing endorsement for using biners. It essentially says "Don't do it, but if you're dumb enough to do this, at least use double lockers"... 3. Don't care about top-ropers or glacier walkers. Outside the scope of argument here and "Ther gonna die" anyway 4. A point not in the UIAA doc and one lost on many (including yourself) is that even with opposed double lockers, you can still cross load the gates. They are still cross-loaded between the belay loop and rope -just oppositely loaded. Only safety benefit is you now have two gate pins between you and death instead of one. 5. Seems pretty clear to me that the few seconds (maybe) of time saving is not worth the additional risk (however "small" it may be)....but to each his own its THAT simple ;) (couldn't resist the plagiarism)


1. im not the one screaming dont do it unlike others here ... im saying simply if you do it, use 2 opposed lockers

2. the UIAA recognizes, unlike you, that not every climbing situation is "ideal" ... they went through and indicated what configuration they thought would be "safe" ... they recognize, unlike you, the reality of certain climbing situations ... for example, autobelays, in the modern climbing world or glacier travel where the middle person clips in

3. obviously you dont, but then top rope, auto belays and glacier travel are the biggest uses of this application

4. explain to me how two properly opposed lockers will break ... even if crossload ... in fact id like to see any documented case where two properly opposed lockers both broke in a climbing situation .... THINK for a moment ... are you someone who uses a gridlock in fear of belay biners broken from crossloading? ... i bet u are

5. thats your judgement ... everyone else can make their OWN decision ... theres enough screw ups with experienced people tying in normally (read every bowline "accident") ... that i wouldnt be shouting about more "risk" of people clipping in 2 opposed lockers

i hope people arent going off about the "risk" of 2 opposed lockers if they arent wearing helmets all the time (which is one of the best things you can do to prevent head trauma) or tying in with bowlines (of which there does seem to be more accidents, of course its all people tying in improperly with em)

im assuming the same people will go off about not using the silent partner for leading with its two locking biners =P


silent partner
silent partner



it really IS that simple

;)

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By Jared Garfield
Aug 10, 2013
Romancing the Stone
Don't be lazy, spend the extra 30 seconds to tie in. When I see people doing what you describe I head to the other side of the cliff because I assume they have no idea what they are doing and I don't want to be responsible when they mess up.

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By Mark Pilate
Aug 11, 2013
Bear feeder-please post a pic. The way you ignore what I said and argue around me make me think you may be my ex wife

(I'm on the road on my iPhone with Autocorrect sorry for the name change)

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By Mark Pilate
Aug 11, 2013
Bear feeder-please post a pic. The way you ignore what I said and argue around me make me think you may be my ex wife

(I'm on the road on my iPhone with Autocorrect sorry for the name change)

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By bearbreeder
Aug 11, 2013
Mark Pilate wrote:
Bear feeder-please post a pic. The way you ignore what I said and argue around me make me think you may be my ex wife (I'm on the road on my iPhone with Autocorrect sorry for the name change)



whine whine whine ... i thought that you already posted your last post

reduced to ex-wives now eh

;)

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By Peter Hurtgen
From Fort Collins, CO
Aug 11, 2013
at the rap from yellow spur
I often just clove hitch to the end of the rope. It work really well when I'm falling all over my project. It's nice cause I can just unclip it after tighting the hitch so much.

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