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Tying into rope through carabiner
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By Mountain Mark
Jul 11, 2013
Here is a no judgement answer.

If you are lead climbing, always tie in. Period. If you still aRe unsure call the manufacturer of your harness. They will set you straight. The risk of a cross load is too much of a possibility. And some carabiners, ones I do not buy, do not have capped gates which have sharp edges and can shred your rope on a leader fall.

If you are top roping you should tie in but it is not insane to use two locking carabiners opposite and opposed. Use the new captive gate carabiners with a tight knot Aron the biner. This will keep the cross loading at bay. Before you do this, check with the manufacturer of the harness.

If you are wondering if you should connect to the belay loop or the tie in point, contact the manufacturer of the harness. I do know petzl says to clip the belay loop. Using the tie in point pretty much loads the carabiner in a weird angle. Also heed my warning on uncapped biner gates. I shredded a rope when I started out and just want to share my survival story.

So while it is good to come to this forum, it is always best to talk to the manufacturer. I have always found them to be most helpful and leave the attitude and judgment aside.

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By barnaclebob
Jul 12, 2013
man, i had a whole response typed up and almost hit post on this oldie...

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By Mark Pilate
Jul 12, 2013
There is no debate here. Leading with this set-up marks you as a gumby and puts you and others at risk (should you deck on them). Your set up is only as strong as the pin in your gates (not strong), which are relatively easily loaded in this type of set up.

Just do it like real climbers and tie the rope through your harness properly. A few extra seconds sure beats a spinal injury or even worse...the ridicule of your fellow climbers.

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By rging
From Salt Lake City, Ut
Jul 12, 2013
CoR
Jake Jones wrote:
To me, sport climbing does not denote or infer top-roping. Someone explain to me where sport climbing, potentially taking lead falls on one locker through the belay loop which can be cross-loaded is safe.


Ever see one of these?

cross loading?
cross loading?

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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Jul 12, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.
rging wrote:
Ever see one of these?


Jake Jones wrote:
potentially taking lead falls on one locker... which can be cross-loaded


Yes I have seen these. I have one. It can't be crossloaded (supposedly). I wasn't inferring that all lockers can be crossloaded. Perhaps he is using one of these. I still wouldn't lead on a biner through my belay loop. YMMV.

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By mountainhick
From Black Hawk, CO
Jul 12, 2013
I don;t get it? What possible advantage is there to using a biner tie in for leading? I see numerous problems, the main being cross loading, but not one single advantage.

And even for top roping, unless you are indeed a total gumbie, it takes less than 20 seconds to tie in. (I just timed it and not rushing, took me 15 sec.) Not a good argument to me for adding an unnecessary link in the safety system keeping you alive.

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By rging
From Salt Lake City, Ut
Jul 12, 2013
CoR
But you didn't take into account the untie factor after everyone falls on the rope ten times each. He probably keeps the biner permanently tied on because the knot is so tight.

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By mountainhick
From Black Hawk, CO
Jul 12, 2013
Right, of course, how silly of me, silly gumbie.

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By Avi Katz
Jul 12, 2013
we should probably start belaying with two opposite and opposed lockers too. maybe even steel ones to cover our asses.

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By Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Jul 13, 2013
...
We should all quit climbing and take up knitting.

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By Josh Allred
From Salt Lake City, UT
Jul 13, 2013
P3 on Nutcracker.
Edward Pyune wrote:
Am I gunadie?


Yes.

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By DannyUncanny
From Vancouver
Jul 13, 2013
I often use a locking carabiner for the middle climber in a group of 3 multipitching on one rope. Simplifies escaping or swapping leads.

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By bearbreeder
Jul 13, 2013
ive lead on a rope folded in half with a fig 8 on a bight and 2 opposed lockers clipped to the belay loop ...

why? .... bringing two seconds on multi up where the pitch length is less than 30m ... no need to bring two ropes

i would like anyone here to tell me how 2 opposed lockers clipped to your belay loop will fail anymore than anything else in "safe" climbing

;)

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By PosiDave
Jul 13, 2013
Never tie in to the belay loop. Single point connection that will end your life just because you wanted to save a minute. If you wanna toprope on it atleast rig some sort of backup to your top point (Webbing or add a 8mm cord as a backup belay.

plenty of climbers have died from wearing out belay loops.

Example:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Ski...

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By Allen Corneau
From Houston, TX
Jul 13, 2013
PosiDave wrote:
Never tie in to the belay loop. Single point connection that will end your life just because you wanted to save a minute. If you wanna toprope on it atleast rig some sort of backup to your top point (Webbing or add a 8mm cord as a backup belay. plenty of climbers have died from wearing out belay loops. Example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Ski...


You are sadly uninformed. If you look at a standard belay loop you'll see that most are constructed of two loops of webbing, one stitched on top of the other, ergo redundancy.

You say "plenty" of climbers have died from belay loop failure and then site the one and only instance that most people know about. Where are the reports for these others?

The fact is that a belay loop in good condition is much stronger than it ever needs to be. The issue is really cross-loading a single carabiner, thus the recommendation for dual biners.

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By Mark Pilate
Jul 15, 2013
Its amazing the way we can all argue the nonsensical details and get off topic...Yes, if you want to be perfectly safe, just stay home and watch TV in full hockey equipment. That said, there are degrees of safety in climbing. The practice of the OP, of just clipping in with a single locker on the belay loop as a matter of general practice is both lazy and foolish. Case closed.

Yes there are others ways and scenarios of doing similar things, and I have done them as well such as Bearbreeder mentioned (a time and purpose for everything).

Now to really open up pandora's box and cross pollinate separate threads, I would suggest that the "safest" thing That Ed should do is use the bowline instead of the 8 if multiple people weighting the rope is his main gripe and reason for cutting corners on the tie in.

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By zenetopia
Jul 15, 2013
Edward Pyune wrote:
I was asked about the safety of my system when someone noticed that instead of tying the rope directly into my harness, I put a locking carabiner on the figure 8 on a bight backed up with a fisherman's which I clip into my belay loop. He questioned both the use of the carabiner as well as clipping into the belay loop instead of the tie-in points on my harness. I do this when we have a group of 3+ sport climbing and we are constantly swapping the rope around (huge time saver, I know), and I just want to see what you guys think. I can see that there is a minor problem with using the carabiner in the sense that it would make the system a bit weaker, as it would be the weakest link in the chain, as well as the chance that the carabiner opening being possible, but I don't think it's that huge of a deal. I was also under the understanding that a good rule of thumb is to use fabric through both tie-in points and metal through the belay loop. From what I heard, the belay loop is actually the strongest part of the harness, in terms of strength as well as being able to equalize the force of the pull onto your tie-in points better than if you clipped a biner into them, since the biner is rigid. So whats the deal? Am I gunadie?


Time saver? What, 3 seconds? Just tie in properly...

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By rging
From Salt Lake City, Ut
Jul 15, 2013
CoR
Mark Pilate wrote:
... I would suggest that the "safest" thing That Ed should do is use the bowline instead of the 8 if multiple people weighting the rope is his main gripe and reason for cutting corners on the tie in.



Now you've gone and done it!

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By boulderkeith
From Boulder, CO
Jul 18, 2013
We need a system like stackexchange.com to ask these questions. That way we can downvote all of you people who don't understand that the length of dynamic rope between the climber and the belay point is what absorbs energy, not the carabiner or the knot or whatever else. Go read about fall factors and dynamic ropes. You clear don't understand the system that saves your life in a lead fall.

To the person who posted the uiaa pdf, that was awesome. Thank you. Here it is again if you missed it:
theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/...

The contribution I'd like to make to this thread is the psuedo legitimate time-saving reason someone might add the cross-loading risk of clipping in with double locked carabiners to their system. Doing this without using doubled lockers is silly.

If you are leading a long route with a 2nd who will never lead and you are a tidy leader at your belay station, you have a 2nd who arrives at the belay station and all the rope is stacked for them to lead. Not need to restack. Except you aren't swapping leads. So you can:
a) restack the rope across them (leash, tie-in point, whatever). This is super time consuming.
b) swap rope ends by both untying and re-tying in: easy at a ledge, can be a challenge at a crowded hanging two bolt belay). Also requires that you trust your leash system. Some people don't (then why do you carry it?).
c) swap ropes via carabiners: cross-loading!

Note: the issue is not where you stack the rope. Even if you have a rope keeping widget, the wrong end is on top.

Personally, I just swap ends. You get fast at tying in over the years. If you can't safely leash in at an anchor, I think you have other issues.

But I'd love to be able to just clip and unclip but I also don't want to lead fall on cross-loaded carabiners.

No one mentioned this application so I thought I would.

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By Kenan
Jul 18, 2013
Shelf Rd
boulderkeith wrote:
We need a system like stackexchange.com to ask these questions. That way we can downvote all of you people who don't understand that the length of dynamic rope between the climber and the belay point is what absorbs energy, not the carabiner or the knot or whatever else. Go read about fall factors and dynamic ropes. You clear don't understand the system that saves your life in a lead fall. To the person who posted the uiaa pdf, that was awesome. Thank you. Here it is again if you missed it: theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/... The contribution I'd like to make to this thread is the psuedo legitimate time-saving reason someone might add the cross-loading risk of clipping in with double locked carabiners to their system. Doing this without using doubled lockers is silly. If you are leading a long route with a 2nd who will never lead and you are a tidy leader at your belay station, you have a 2nd who arrives at the belay station and all the rope is stacked for them to lead. Not need to restack. Except you aren't swapping leads. So you can: a) restack the rope across them (leash, tie-in point, whatever). This is super time consuming. b) swap rope ends by both untying and re-tying in: easy at a ledge, can be a challenge at a crowded hanging two bolt belay). Also requires that you trust your leash system. Some people don't (then why do you carry it?). c) swap ropes via carabiners: cross-loading! Note: the issue is not where you stack the rope. Even if you have a rope keeping widget, the wrong end is on top. Personally, I just swap ends. You get fast at tying in over the years. If you can't safely leash in at an anchor, I think you have other issues. But I'd love to be able to just clip and unclip but I also don't want to lead fall on cross-loaded carabiners. No one mentioned this application so I thought I would.



Wow! You're advocating that both climbing partners UNTIE from the rope at the anchors on multipitch climbs for rope management purposes?!? That's insane and unnecessary. Rope management at the anchors is pretty trivial once you get some practice with it... the rope can be draped with incrementally shorter loops during the climb in such a way that it is a one-motion 'flop' to get the right end ready for the next leader. Even if you stack it onto a ledge, we're talking about a single motion (pancake flip) to get the right end ready for re-leading.

Furthermore, you should be anchored with the rope (clove hitch into master point) for multipitch climbs, not a daisy chain or leash.

dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/how-...
outdoorsafetyinstitute.com/ind...
splitterchoss.com/2010/09/08/t...

Neither climber should untie from the rope on a multipitch climb until it is finished. Period.

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By Dave Lynch
From Douglas, Wyoming
Jul 18, 2013
Sunny day on Lost Marsupial, The Throne.
This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.

By Mark Pilate
Jul 18, 2013
BoulderKeith- You succeeded in being partially right, mostly wrong, and 100% confusing all at once....quite the feat! :)

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By mike sheridan
From Golden
Jul 18, 2013
arg
This is one of the worst threads I've seen. Ok let me break it down for you intro level climbers making your way out of the gym and into the big kid world. #1; the idea is to eliminate points of failure in your system! Therefore, you tie directly into your harness. #2; the idea of making it easy to get on and off rope is for carnival walls. #3; nylon is dynamic on your harness and your rope, a carabiner is not. #4; if on tr or lead and you're belaying your partner and taking in slack the carabiener can move and be gate loaded or side loaded, it's weakest point, usually 7kn, do you know what that means?
#5; get a professional lesson or stay in the gym!

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By bearbreeder
Jul 19, 2013
mike sheridan wrote:
This is one of the worst threads I've seen. Ok let me break it down for you intro level climbers making your way out of the gym and into the big kid world. #1; the idea is to eliminate points of failure in your system! Therefore, you tie directly into your harness. #2; the idea of making it easy to get on and off rope is for carnival walls. #3; nylon is dynamic on your harness and your rope, a carabiner is not. #4; if on tr or lead and you're belaying your partner and taking in slack the carabiener can move and be gate loaded or side loaded, it's weakest point, usually 7kn, do you know what that means? #5; get a professional lesson or stay in the gym!



hmmmmm ... so how does the middle man in a glacier team usually tie in ...

Professional guide Dan Mazur, who operates Himalaya, Inc., recommends using an 8mm, 30-meter, super-dry treated rope for glacier travel. He says this rope is lightweight and inexpensive. Note that it is a twin, not double, rope.

I've used the butterfly to rope-in the middle man, but find it difficult to tie compared to a figure-8 on a bight. The old argument said always to use the butterfly because it more evenly distributes the load, making it the stronger of the two knots, but with modern ropes, which don't break, knot strength doesn't matter. Mazur recommended the butterfly, but he says that a lot of beginners have a tough time tying it correctly -- for them, he recommends the figure-8.
With either knot, the middle man will have to clip to the knot using two reversed and opposed locking carabiners.


rockandice.com/lates-news/how-...

explain EXACTLY how 2 opposed and locking biners are going to fail

is your belay biner "dynamic"??? ... in a high factor fall it better be for you the way you go off

;)

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By bearbreeder
Jul 19, 2013
PosiDave wrote:
Never tie in to the belay loop. Single point connection that will end your life just because you wanted to save a minute. If you wanna toprope on it atleast rig some sort of backup to your top point (Webbing or add a 8mm cord as a backup belay. plenty of climbers have died from wearing out belay loops.


do you belay off your tie in loops?

in a high factor fall you belay loop will see a whole SHIETload of force ... makes no sense to insist on to scream about belay loops on the climber side without screaming about em on the belayers side as well

inspect your gear ... and retire it when needed ... if you cant do that you shouldnt be climbing

belay loops ARE redundant if you loop at the construction youll see it

;)

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