Tying into rope through carabiner

I was asked about the safety of my system when someone noticed that instead of tying the rope directly into my harness, I put a locking carabiner on the figure 8 on a bight backed up with a fisherman's which I clip into my belay loop. He questioned both the use of the carabiner as well as clipping into the belay loop instead of the tie-in points on my harness. I do this when we have a group of 3+ sport climbing and we are constantly swapping the rope around (huge time saver, I know), and I just want to see what you guys think.

I can see that there is a minor problem with using the carabiner in the sense that it would make the system a bit weaker, as it would be the weakest link in the chain, as well as the chance that the carabiner opening being possible, but I don't think it's that huge of a deal.

I was also under the understanding that a good rule of thumb is to use fabric through both tie-in points and metal through the belay loop. From what I heard, the belay loop is actually the strongest part of the harness, in terms of strength as well as being able to equalize the force of the pull onto your tie-in points better than if you clipped a biner into them, since the biner is rigid.

So whats the deal? Am I gunadie?

We do it all the time always with a locker though.

What a waste of a carabiner! In fact you do not DESERVE to own a carabiner! Do yourself and others a favor and get a professional instructor to show you some basics.

The belay loop is the strongest single point on the harness, but the tie-in points together are much stronger. Why do you think they are there?
Also, try to envision the shock load of a lead fall on a tied in system, the load being dispersed through the knot and loop. Now imagine all that force hitting a rigid loop of metal. Plus you have a bigger pile crap you have to reach past to pull up for a clip. You need to scoop up all your gear, and your buddies too, and go to Red Rocks and give that shit away to the first climber you see. Seriously. Take up a different sport. Any sport.

I personally wouldn't lead tied in like that.

That said, page 30 of "The Complete Guide to Rope Techniques" (Revised Edition) by Nigel Shepherd shows tying in exactly as you describe. I've seen it in other published sources, too.

I've seen groups use a carabiner tiein for TR. Some people who tie into the middle of the rope with an Alpine Butterfly clip in with a locking 'biner or two.

Let me ask you this: How do people tie in at gyms that have "auto belay" devices like Trublue? autobelay.com/trublue-auto-…
It's with a locking carabiner clipped to the belay loop.

IMO, "best practice" is direct tie in with the rope. Are you gunna die from this? I doubt it. I bet it's just fine for top roping or following - especially if you use two carabiners.

Edit: Now we'll wait for all the "me too" posts. LOL

Use 2, opposed, if you gotta do this (NOT for reason OP describes, but real ones... For example team of 3 and 2nd ties in halfway). Why? Cause even top roping weird situations or errors can cause slack, then a fall= if carabiner is single, and it rotates a bit, you fall onto gate, biner can break.

If you were my climbing partner with this setup I would question your common sence.

If you insist on using a biner, use a steel locker that's appropriately rated in a cross loading scenario. That's about the only way you are going to make it safe the way you are doing it. Or you could just take the extra 20 seconds to tie into the rope properly and not have the extra weight/cluster.

If you absolutely must do this with a biner, you can make it a bit safer by taking a few seconds to thread it thru both tie-in points that way it can't get cross loaded. There's a gym near me in philadelphia which doesn't trust people to tie in for some reason - the knot's already tied and you have to clip in this way using two locking caribiners.

El Tigre wrote:Ttry to envision the shock load of a lead fall on a tied in system, the load being dispersed through the knot and loop. Now imagine all that force hitting a rigid loop of metal.

Thats gotta be one of the dumbest things I have read. He is still tieing in with a figure eight to the locker so you are not making sense... There is still a knot in the system to disperse energy.

Also, I am pretty sure this guy is talking about top roping on this setup for gumbies that do not know how to tie knots quickly, NOT for lead climbing.

Christ you guys are a bunch of idiots, learn to read.

Gaaah knots do not distribute forces!!! Anyhow +1 For opposed lockers.

RockyMtnTed wrote: Thats gotta be one of the dumbest things I have read. He is still tieing in with a figure eight to the locker so you are not making sense... There is still a knot in the system to disperse energy. Also, I am pretty sure this guy is talking about top roping on this setup for gumbies that do not know how to tie knots quickly, NOT for lead climbing. Christ you guys are a bunch of idiots, learn to read.

There is a shock load directly on the biner when the belay loop is pulled taught. He also calls what they are doing sport climbing, which infers leading.

Medic741 wrote:Gaaah knots do not distribute forces!!! Anyhow +1 For opposed lockers.

Here comes a days worth of input from the engineers. I suppose the way a knot is cranked super tight from a fall doesn't disperse any energy?

A lot of bullshit responses so far. You're system, while probably not the best way of doing things, is safe. It's done like that at the climbing walls that end up at schools and carnivals and stuff. You have a line of people waiting to take a turn on the wall. Two lockers clipped to a fig 8 knot. Both lockers go through the belay loop. Fast and safe.

That said, if there are only three of you, just tie in. It won't take much longer and it is the most simple solution. Simple is good.

I'd say fine if you are top-roping with the caveat that I'd use two opposite and opposed biners. One locker could become unlocked (or accidentally not locked in the first place) and then you'd be attached with only one non-locking biner. I've definitely ties in like this for rope travel on glaciers, and when top-roping with two ropes tied together to prevent the need to pass the knot.

I'd not lead on this setup, but that is as much because it'd be annoying and cumbersome as any real safety concerns. The only place I see a real advantage here would be in a climbing gym situation where you are switching ropes between lots of people. I cannot see any real advantage in most normal outdoor climbing situations.

If your toproping (and using a locker) you're probably ok, I would be hesitant to lead with this setup, but if the structural integrity of your gear is sound theoretically you should be fine. In climbing we like to think that we should not rely on just one piece of gear, but it happens all the time (think belaying a second with an autobocker off an anchor, repelling, etc.) usually these techniques are only used when there is little chance of putting a huge load on the system. The biggest concern I have with this setup is the rotation of the biner and potential cross-loading which could break the biner in a factor 2 fall scenario.
The shock loading concerns others have posted are just wrong. Shock loading is problematic when all components of a system are static (daisy chain to a bolt). The biner is tied into the rope which last time I checked should be dynamic, makes the entire system dynamic. (check out John Long's anchor book for more on this subject).
Bottom line I would not have any problem using this setup for toproping, but its better to use two biners for redundancy. If you're going to lead, take the extra 10 seconds to tie yourself in, is probably worth it.

45kn steel carabiner should leave you worrie free.
All rope soloers/self rescue gurus are attaching themselves via carabiners direct to belay loop.

I have seen this technique used in large instructional groups, where the instructor cannot routinely check everyone's knots. Structurally, it makes sense, even for leading (the biner you are falling on will see twice as much force as the rope and the biner you are clipping to your belay loop).

Cross-loading could be an issue. If anything it's a less than ideal method since it adds complexity, and another biner you need to avoid cross-loading. Also, while multi-pitch climbing you tend to have other stuff (personal anchor, belay device, etc) attached to the belay loop and it's nice to keep your tie-in seperate and out of the way.

On a top rope I'll do this with a double figure eight and TWO locking caribiners with their gates oposed. Pretty much failproof. Only on a top rope setup though.

I wouldn't do it like that unless you use two locking carabiners. There is a chance that the biner gets cross loaded and fails. Some people might say "it is rated to x", but one gate failure and you are in trouble. And it does happen.

I believe it was one or two years ago in Utah that someone was climbing with the setup you described (on top rope) and the gate got cross loaded and the gate opened and the guy decked. There is a photo/thread of it on MP somewhere...

Hard to believe that clipping a 'biner would save that much time versus tying in... but if you feel it really does, I would use two 'biners.

jumping fish wrote:45kn steel carabiner should leave you worrie free. All rope soloers/self rescue gurus are attaching themselves via carabiners direct to belay loop.

Not entirely true. Most all rope soloist using the Soloist tie in with cord through the tie-in points. If using the the Silent Partner, the directions recommend two locking carabiners through the tie-in points and explicitly say not to use the belay loop. I may occasionally tie back-up loops that I clip into the belay loop, but it is never my primary attachment while rope-soling. Never used a Grigri, so I can't comment on that.