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Tying into rope through carabiner
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Oct 19, 2012
tree climbing Love it.
csproul wrote:
Not entirely true. Most all rope soloist using the Soloist tie in with cord through the tie-in points. If using the the Silent Partner, the directions recommend two locking carabiners through the tie-in points and explicitly say not to use the belay loop. I may occasionally tie back-up loops that I clip into the belay loop, but it is never my primary attachment while rope-soling. Never used a Grigri, so I can't comment on that.

I use the clove hitch on a single carabiner as directed by the climbing self rescue instructional book(mountaineers out door expert series, by Andy Tyson and Molly Loomis). There is also an artical in the climbing magazine #303 about short-fixing and it suggests using a simple clove hitch system. I'm still going with the single steel locking carabiner.
jumping fish
Joined Aug 26, 2011
100 points
Oct 19, 2012
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W.
Ah. The shock load discussions. My favorite. Forces in climbing and car accidents are a matter of "time". Acceleration and deceleration are about time to absorb or dissipate energy. When using a dynamic rope the time to decelerate is relatively slow. We are talking about fractions of a second making a huge differenc. So shock loading the biner.... No.

In response to Dan B above. We rely on single pieces of gear all the time when potential loads are greatest such as the belay loop, single locker, single belay device, single rope, single nut, with single biner with regard to leads falls.

To answer the op. Lead falls can push 7kN or higher in certain situation. The minor axis of most biners are only 6 to 10kN. So you may be dangerously close to their limit as mentioned by many above. So buy a super burly biner or use two with at least one locker.
Greg D
From Here
Joined Apr 5, 2006
961 points
Oct 19, 2012
High Exposure
Gunkiemike wrote:
There is a shock load directly on the biner when the belay loop is pulled taught.


Which is absolutely negated by the dynamic proprieties of the climbing rope at the other end of the same carabiner, right?
wivanoff
Joined Mar 3, 2012
121 points
Oct 19, 2012
Cold day at Smug's
jumping fish wrote:
I use the clove hitch on a single carabiner as directed by the climbing self rescue instructional book(mountaineers out door expert series, by Andy Tyson and Molly Loomis). There is also an artical in the climbing magazine #303 about short-fixing and it suggests using a simple clove hitch system. I'm still going with the single steel locking carabiner.

Rope soloing under a self-recue situation is an entirely different animal. I'd prob be ok with a clove on a single biner in that situation, although even then I'd likely back it up with a bight clipped back to my harness. If I were planing on doing a good amount of short fixing, I'd prob use a grigri and then it'd have to be clipped by a single locking biner. I'd prob use something that was auto-locking to help prevent accidental unlocking and still back it up to another loop. I've done a fair amount of rope-soloing and I can tell you for sure that using a clove sucks compared to using a device intended for soloing. You may disagree, but your assertion that:
jumping fish wrote:
All rope soloers/self rescue gurus are attaching themselves via carabiners direct to belay loop.

just isn't quite true. In fact, the majority of rope soloist I have ever met were not attached by a single (to be fair, I guess you didn't say single) locking carabiner to the belay loop. The exceptions being a few aid climbers using a Grigri, and most of them were tying a backup knot of some kind.
csproul
From Davis, CA
Joined Dec 3, 2009
218 points
Oct 19, 2012
tree climbing Love it.
wait for it











































your gonna die! ha ha
jumping fish
Joined Aug 26, 2011
100 points
Oct 19, 2012
lots of bad info on this thread

for real actual info go here ... theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/...

IMO

1. use 2 opposed biners, preferably with at least one a locker if not both

2. dont worry about all this fancy loading ... theres already biners in the system ... at the belay end, the pro, and so what if they are at the climber end ... if you have 2 biners youll be fine ...

3. safety wise itll be perfectly fine with 2 biners ... but its not "best practice" as when leading its more bulky and easier to screw up yr clips IMO ...
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
2,143 points
Oct 19, 2012
Larry S wrote:
If you absolutely must do this with a biner, you can make it a bit safer by taking a few seconds to thread it thru both tie-in points that way it can't get cross loaded. There's a gym near me in philadelphia which doesn't trust people to tie in for some reason - the knot's already tied and you have to clip in this way using two locking caribiners.


If I am interpreting that correctly, you are telling him to tri-axially load the single carabiner through both tie-in points?

If that is the case, then I am not sure that tri-axially loading is less dangerous than cross-loading.
Khoi
From Vancouver, BC
Joined Oct 12, 2009
15 points
Oct 19, 2012
Khoi wrote:
If I am interpreting that correctly, you are telling him to tri-axially load the single carabiner through both tie-in points? If that is the case, then I am not sure that tri-axially loading is less dangerous than cross-loading.

Considering the waist belt tie in would take the majority of the load, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Its like the silly argument that clipping your belay device to your tie in points is dangerous.
redlude97
Joined Jun 21, 2010
8 points
Oct 19, 2012
Mongol Hoarde
Thanks for the help guys! After filtering through the (expected) negativity and bashing, I came to the conclusion that I will start tying in directly to the harness from now on. The possibility of the biner cross-loading, especially during a lead fall (so yes, I was leading on this :X), didn't occur to me, and makes sense that if you were to attach a biner, you would want at least 2. Just KISS Edward Pyune
From Las Vegas, NV
Joined Apr 11, 2012
668 points
Oct 19, 2012
Cold day at Smug's
Khoi wrote:
If I am interpreting that correctly, you are telling him to tri-axially load the single carabiner through both tie-in points? If that is the case, then I am not sure that tri-axially loading is less dangerous than cross-loading.

Tri-axial loading in this situation is pretty much non-existent just like it is when clipping your belay device through your tei-in points. Unless your leg loops are a long way from your waist (I geuss if you were really tall?) then they pretty much end up at the same place when you weight them. Try it...clip a locking biner through you tie-in points and weight it. The waist and leg loops end up at one end of the biner and whatever your hanging from end up at the other, pretty much pulling form two directions. Even if the biner got turned sideways, I'd bet that the same thing would happen. Still....just tie into the damn rope!
csproul
From Davis, CA
Joined Dec 3, 2009
218 points
Oct 19, 2012
Edward Pyune wrote:
Thanks for the help guys! After filtering through the (expected) negativity and bashing, I came to the conclusion that I will start tying in directly to the harness from now on. The possibility of the biner cross-loading, especially during a lead fall (so yes, I was leading on this :X), didn't occur to me, and makes sense that if you were to attach a biner, you would want at least 2. Just KISS


Edward, help me out; I'm missing something here. If you were leading with this setup, presumably you would need to untie the 8-on-a-bight between leads to pull the rope, right? How is this any faster than tying in directly to your harness?
kBobby
From Spokane, WA
Joined Oct 5, 2001
1,373 points
Oct 19, 2012
Chillin' at City of Rocks
Personally I can tie into the rope through the legs and waist so fast that it really is not an inconvenience, even if sporting......

Really you are that lazy?????
Princess Mia
From Vail
Joined May 22, 2006
427 points
Oct 19, 2012
Mongol Hoarde
kBobby wrote:
Edward, help me out; I'm missing something here. If you were leading with this setup, presumably you would need to untie the 8-on-a-bight between leads to pull the rope, right? How is this any faster than tying in directly to your harness?


We usually had 1 person lead and the others would top rope. Once the leader reaches the top, he makes a top rope anchor with 2 opposite + opposed lockers at the master point to clip the rope through. The belayer then lowers him and the leader unclips and hands someone else the rope to clip into. The time saving wasn't really the appeal, as the convenience of just unclipping and giving someone the biner to clip into and start going.
Edward Pyune
From Las Vegas, NV
Joined Apr 11, 2012
668 points
Oct 19, 2012
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV
You have just wasted all of the time you "saved" by tying into a carabiner by creating this thread. you're going to cross-load that sucker one day and fall to your death. Just tie in. Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Joined Aug 15, 2008
357 points
Oct 19, 2012
Rrrrr
This thread needs a serious pussy

Hello Kitty
Hello Kitty
Buff Johnson
Joined Dec 19, 2005
1,499 points
Oct 19, 2012
Princess Mia wrote:
Personally I can tie into the rope through the legs and waist so fast that it really is not an inconvenience, even if sporting...... Really you are that lazy?????

+1
kBobby
From Spokane, WA
Joined Oct 5, 2001
1,373 points
Oct 19, 2012
on the trip
Yes really, humans are that lazy! Senior Hernandez
Joined Apr 5, 2011
27 points
Oct 19, 2012
If there is a God she will nuke this entire thread immediately. Rob Dillon
Joined Mar 22, 2002
1,010 points
Oct 20, 2012
tree climbing Love it.
This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.
jumping fish
Joined Aug 26, 2011
100 points
Oct 20, 2012
Berlin
Ok, for top-roping, but not for leading. Jay Eggleston
From Denver
Joined Feb 5, 2003
13,688 points
Oct 20, 2012
smoke break, pitch 5 or 6 (or 7??) of Dark Shadows
El Tigre wrote:
Here comes a days worth of input from the engineers.


Nah, we engineers are waiting to comment on threads we're qualified to comment on, such as "How to stop my bunghole from itching?", and "HELP! I don't want to take my girlfriend's dog climbing".
Eric Krantz
From Black Hills
Joined Feb 21, 2004
469 points
Oct 20, 2012
El Cajon Mtn. Leonids. 5.9.
Accidents in climbing happen more often when people try to take shortcuts. ChaseLeoncini
From San Diego, California
Joined Aug 22, 2012
145 points
Oct 21, 2012
From the news story referenced earlier in the thread about the guy in Utah who may have cross-loaded a biner and decked when it apparently broke:

""With that weight and with him pushing off as much as he did, he fell approximately 80 feet,"

Wasn't there but it sounds like there was some "hero rappelling" with big leaps and bounds going on, multiplying the loading forces and contributing to the failure. Watching too many "Be all you can be" commercials?
TWK
Joined Sep 15, 2012
164 points
Oct 22, 2012
TWK wrote:
From the news story referenced earlier in the thread about the guy in Utah who may have cross-loaded a biner and decked when it apparently broke: ""With that weight and with him pushing off as much as he did, he fell approximately 80 feet," Wasn't there but it sounds like there was some "hero rappelling" with big leaps and bounds going on, multiplying the loading forces and contributing to the failure. Watching too many "Be all you can be" commercials?



there was a photo before of the broken biner i believe ... it didnt look like an xloading failure ...

to see what the what the failures of different loading look like go here ...

blackdiamondequipment.com/en-u...
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
2,143 points
Oct 29, 2012
a recent accident where it appears that a single carabiner was used in a top roping type setup

nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article...

as indicated by the UIAA paper, use 2 opposed, preferably with at least one being a locker ...
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
2,143 points


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