By Whiskeybullets
Feb 20, 2010
| When leading in blocks, Florine and some others recommend placing two crabs trough your tie in points, and then clipping an eight on a bite into these crabs instead of the traditional tie in. At the end of the pitch, the leader simply un-clips, leaving the lead end of the rope setup as a belay point for the second, and then clips the other end of the rope (also an eight on a bite) into his crabs. This way the belay changeover is fast, and the rope is flaked for the lead.
Has anyone used this system and can make a recommendation on how well it really works?
Any contrarian opinions on this system? If so, what "technique" do you use?
And is it bite or bight, technically? | 
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By John Hegyes
From Las Vegas, NV
Feb 20, 2010
| Using carabiners to hook your harness into the lead rope instead of tying in is risky. In a fall the carabiners can crossload and become damaged, which is why this is not done as a matter of routine and why two biners are recommended. On the positive side, this technique would certainly speed up transitions between pitches. Make sure the biners are opposite and opposed...
The figure eight on a bight was probably mentioned to distinguish it from the figure eight follow-through that is normally used to tie into the harness. The knots both look the same, but the methods of tying them is different. On a bight is slightly faster to tie. |
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By Forestvonsinkafinger
From Iowa
Feb 20, 2010
| If you know you have good gear, and often, this could be safe and efficient. If you have long runouts with violent fall factors, I would stick with old trusty tie in. |
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By Brett Brotherton
From Arvada, CO
Feb 20, 2010
| Depending on how you organize the rope as you bring up the second, its usually pretty easy to flip the whole thing and then it feeds out nicely. Especially if your coiling it over your daisy or tie in point just gradually make the coils bigger as you go so the smallest ones are on the bottom, and then when your partner ties in pick up the whole thing and flip it on to his daisy and it should feed nice. Takes a little practice to do it smoothly but I would rather do this then have to worry about switching tie in points at the top of every pitch, but then again I don't climb that fast. |
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By J. Thompson
From denver, co
Feb 21, 2010
| "Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok wrote: WRONG KNOT! You use a butterfly in this situation, and knott a fig-8-on-a-bight.
Have to disagree there.
The Butterfly would be the knot if you were tying inhto the middle of the rope. However in this situation you are tying into the ends of the rope. The Figure eight on a bight doesn't get "pulled apart" as it would if it were tied to the middle of the rope. Which is the reason for using the Butterfly in that situation.
The F8OAB when tied to the end of the rope is, basically the same as the figure 8 follow through. You can actually tie the follow through to acheive the same knot....it just takes longer.
josh |
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By Kevin Stricker
From Evergreen, CO
Feb 21, 2010
| Brett Brotherton wrote: Depending on how you organize the rope as you bring up the second, its usually pretty easy to flip the whole thing and then it feeds out nicely. Especially if your coiling it over your daisy or tie in point just gradually make the coils bigger as you go so the smallest ones are on the bottom, and then when your partner ties in pick up the whole thing and flip it on to his daisy and it should feed nice. Takes a little practice to do it smoothly but I would rather do this then have to worry about switching tie in points at the top of every pitch, but then again I don't climb that fast.
This only works when you are belaying your second, if they are jugging then they have the rope with them.
The figure 8 on a bight with two lockers works and probably saves some time. I don't find it necessary to switch ends very often when leading in blocks though. Especially if you are short fixing, which you should be doing if you are going for speed. I almost always just tie in normal, and switch ends when necessary at the end of a block( so that I can deal with the rope mess and the leader can get on with leading). |
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By J. Thompson
From denver, co
Feb 22, 2010
| Kevin Stricker wrote: This only works when you are belaying your second, if they are jugging then they have the rope with them. The figure 8 on a bight with two lockers works and probably saves some time. I don't find it necessary to switch ends very often when leading in blocks though. Especially if you are short fixing, which you should be doing if you are going for speed. I almost always just tie in normal, and switch ends when necessary at the end of a block( so that I can deal with the rope mess and the leader can get on with leading).
This doesn't work for block leading well. Unless you are not tying in with the rope. Even then it's faster to switch ends.
I agree with Kevin about short fixing. However when you start adding free climbing 5.10 and above short fixing starts to become more complex...and more dangerous.
Honestly the 2 carabiner tie in method is for "super" speed, if you will.
You can knock 30 seconds off at a belay by doing it. 10 changes = 5minutes. If you are going for records and are willing to accept a *little* more risk....use it. If you are just trying to get up something quick, maybe not.
Hans is one of, if not the best at what he does. His insight and knowledge are very valueable. But use the information wisely, not blindly. Apply as needed.
josh |
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By J. Thompson
From denver, co
Feb 22, 2010
| That seems poorly written.
A little over simplified....there are other technique's being used that are more key to that system than leading in blocks. primarily short fixing.
If you're wondering "why does this route take me 4 days when the locals blast it in a day?" The first answer would be to stop hauling! The second is that climbing with 3 usually isn't faster. Especially when short fixing.
Leading in blocks simply means....each person leads a "block" of pitches. Whether you are aid climbing or free does not matter for the definition.
josh |
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