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By Will S
From Joshua Tree
Dec 31, 2012

JLP wrote:
Not to pick on Will (too much), but while he brags here about his hangboard sessions, his recent TRs for Rostrum, Cloud Tower and FreeRider speak volumes about how well these type of training sessions prepare you for such goals. Summary: they didn't.


That's mostly fair criticism. I don't mind it when it's used to further the discussion. Not to belabor the point too much, but being strong enough to pull the moves is only one factor, and hangboarding and bouldering definitely got me strong enough. For the strength end of the equation, that type of training was excellent preparation.

But that's only one part of it. Efficiency and "feel" is a big factor as well, and in each of those cases I'd done little to no roped climbing in the several months preceding each of those routes. I also think the criticism would hold a little more weight if I went up there and just flailed or got shut down. I went up on each of those (actually parts of Freerider, not the whole deal) and more or less took a hang on a pitch or two on the onsight attempts, and climbed all the moves free. I think characterizing it as "struggling" on those routes is pretty far off the mark.

As much as I like talking about myself ;^p this all seems like we're taking the discussion off base though. If we're interested in the effectiveness of various hangboard routines, strength gains (both short and long term) would seem to me to be the primary measurement...not whether I failed to onsight some long trad routes (especially when there are counter examples...didn't Mike onsight Freerider? And the Rainbow Wall?)

My issue with Steph's program is that it looks poorly designed and runs counter to virtually all the accumulated knowledge in how to train for strength sports. Doing long PE project work, then adding hangs at the end when you're already thrashed? Maybe it's good for further PE work, but IMO it's a terrible way to train for strength.


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By camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Jan 1, 2013
You stay away from mah pig!

Will S wrote:
Not to belabor the point too much, but being strong enough to pull the moves is only one factor, and hangboarding and bouldering definitely got me strong enough. For the strength end of the equation, that type of training was excellent preparation. But that's only one part of it. Efficiency and "feel" is a big factor as well, and in each of those cases I'd done little to no roped climbing in the several months preceding each of those routes.


This is kind of what I was alluding to when I mentioned the phenomenon of a lot of MPers (myself included to a degree) jumping into the rockprodgety routine before they're really ready. When you say "efficiency and feel," you're basically referring to what everyone vaguely calls "technique." And here's the thing: periodization, hangboarding, campusing, all work best when one is building on excellent technique; in the case of the Mandersons (tm), we're talking about years of Smith Rock pockets and granite slab. Mike is one of the best technical climbers that I've climbed with, and is constantly refining his efficiency and footwork while ARCing. The problem is that gumbies like me can often implicitly assume that periodization is a magic bullet, and come up with suboptimal results when we combine optimal strength with our solid "B+" technique.

I'm not sure if this was the case with you or not, Will. But from my experience, slick Yosemite granite climbing is difficult to quantify and prepare for in terms of training (especially from a simple, move-by-move, PE perspective), so it's not surprising at all that hangboarding did not directly result in success on Freerider. Periodization results in success more easily on straightforward RRG routes, or even sandstone crack climbs, which tend to be more linear and less subtle than granite (I actually surprised myself with some accidental success on Wingate splitters after doing periodization this past spring/summer).


Will S wrote:
...didn't Mike onsight Freerider? And the Rainbow Wall?) My issue with Steph's program is that it looks poorly designed and runs counter to virtually all the accumulated knowledge in how to train for strength sports.


I believe that Mike and Mark did Freerider first go, though they had previously aided Salathe Wall and so did not "claim" the OS. Still badass. But, as I recall, at least for Mike, he did this before he got heavily into periodization. So, once again, it comes back to subtle technique, and "all-day" fitness, rather than just power-endurance.

The short version of all this rambling is: periodization works best if you have excellent technique, which most of us could still work on.


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By reboot
From Westminster, CO
Jan 1, 2013

Not to make excuses, but it's a bit unfair to compare the accomplishment of a pro climber to a weekend warrior on long routes, especially in areas that aren't in one's backyard: a pro climber has the time to become intimately familiar with the style of an area and project a long route, something many weekend warriors don't have the luxury of. So I'm always a little weary of pro training routines as they have different deficiencies/constraints than the rest of us.

camhead wrote:
When you say "efficiency and feel," you're basically referring to what everyone vaguely calls "technique."

It can also be called rock familiarity and route reading, which you can lump into techniques, but it's not just micro-level movement efficiency we typical call "technique" that can be trained indoor.


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By Dana Bartlett
From CT
Jan 1, 2013

Funny how these little tidbits get left out in favor of long and complicated hangboard discussions.


But the point of the thread - from the start - was about effective use of a hangboard for building strength. The thread wasn't started to discuss the best way to build a comprehensive training program. I really doubt that Will S, Mark or many of the other people who posted are unaware of the need for other training methods.


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By steph davis
Jan 2, 2013

hey guys, i'm definitely NOT a training or hangboard (fingerboard?) expert! as some said, a lot of the questions i get on my blog are from people trying to break into a new thing, and the most important thing is to just start doing it and see where it takes you. for sure, using the board for pullups as I have done and suggested is not going to be a traditional advanced hangboard use.
so thanks for the links and ideas: I just started campusing about a month ago, and my friend Kingsley is all fired up to teach me about advanced hangboard workouts which he does daily (due to his special, non-injurious method). so i'm rigging up a couple of pulleys and trying to round up some weights before he gives me the rundown. it seems very similar to the repeaters described in the beastmaker link. having never trained with these climbing aids in my life until now, i'm super excited to start learning more and getting it into my routine.


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By sanz
From Raleigh, NC
Jan 2, 2013
One of my first trad leads, on Ooga Chocka at Crowder's Mountain.

Dang Steph, if you've never trained for real on a hangboard, I'm kinda scared to see how strong you're about to get. I heard Tommy needs some help on the Dawn Wall...

If you care to share Kingley's non-injury techniques, I'd like to hear them. Static hang monos scare the crap out of me every time.


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By Will S
From Joshua Tree
Jan 2, 2013

camhead wrote:
This is kind of what I was alluding to when I mentioned the phenomenon of a lot of MPers (myself included to a degree) jumping into the rockprodgety routine before they're really ready. When you say "efficiency and feel," you're basically referring to what everyone vaguely calls "technique."



Well sure, technique is vitally important and you can apply strength better with good technique. But that's not what I'm talking about. If you go to an area you don't climb at regularly, and spend a couple weeks there, you get a much better "feel" for the rock/style. You know instinctively how hard to crimp without overgripping, how much you can weight a foot, etc. That, in turn, makes you more efficient and really pays off on longer routes. It's the same reason I used to free solo within a number of my redpoint ability when I was climbing 5days/week in Josh, but solo at a much lower standard now that I'm lucky to get in 5days a month (despite redpointing significantly harder). My general "technique" is certainly better now than then, but I don't have the "feel" from current mileage.

Keep in mind that I'm a 40yo, weekend warrior schlub with no particular talent to speak of. Getting as strong as possible in my limited free time, then using that to project the few things I find worth the invesment of time on my limited vacation time...that's my path. And it works reasonably well for me. If I were 25 and on the bum circuit, my approach would be much different.


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By HoseBeats
Jan 2, 2013

JohnWesely wrote:
Training is about setting measurable goals, and creating a structured framework to achieve them. If you are not already being extremely deliberate with your time, then adding on campusing or hangboarding is just putting the cart before the horse.


This is one of the most intelligent statements on training I've read in a long time.


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By slim
Administrator
Jan 2, 2013
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

i completely know what you mean about feel. when switching venues, it alsways takes me a couple days to get into the groove. i think a lot of it has to do with getting familiar with the friction, general layout a configuration of holds, etc. even on desert cracks, my first day or 2 out i feel a bit off.

i think JLP's comparison of willS and steph's performances on routes wasn't a very good comparison. it would be more comparable to the comparison of an onsite attempt versus a redpoint attempt. a person will likely be more successful on a route if they have spent some time on it.

this kind of also relates to training methods - for some people they have a lot of time that they can use to spend working routes. for others, they might only have 1 training day a week, and a partner who doesn't want to go to the same place repeatedly. so, obviously a definition of success might be quite different as well. for some, putting in a ton of burns and finally sending might be the goal. for others, they might focus on '3 to 5' attempt redpoints, and try to get as many as they can, or try to elevate their level at which they can do this.


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By caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Jan 2, 2013

I thought there weren't going to be anymore Twinkies?


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By koreo
From Denver, CO
Jan 2, 2013
sloping <br />

JLP wrote:
This is about 95% of what I take away from these MP.com training threads


Then there's JLP. Who crushes harder than (insert 5.14 climber's name) and knows more about physiology and exercise science than Eric Horst and Dave Macleod combined.


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By Optimistic
From New Paltz
Jan 2, 2013

steph davis wrote:
hey guys, i'm definitely NOT a training or hangboard (fingerboard?) expert! as some said, a lot of the questions i get on my blog are from people trying to break into a new thing, and the most important thing is to just start doing it and see where it takes you. for sure, using the board for pullups as I have done and suggested is not going to be a traditional advanced hangboard use. so thanks for the links and ideas: I just started campusing about a month ago, and my friend Kingsley is all fired up to teach me about advanced hangboard workouts which he does daily (due to his special, non-injurious method). so i'm rigging up a couple of pulleys and trying to round up some weights before he gives me the rundown. it seems very similar to the repeaters described in the beastmaker link. having never trained with these climbing aids in my life until now, i'm super excited to start learning more and getting it into my routine.


Hi Steph:

When I ran across your blog entry on this workout my initial impulse was to write to you and get your thoughts on it...and reading through some of these comments I think that might have been a good impulse to follow!

But some nuggets of wisdom here too, along with a number of nuggets made of other materials. I think several folks have raised a really good point, though, which is that your training should be focused around your weaknessess and your goals.

So with that, now that you've been following this program (the pullup/hangboard combo described on your blog, not the campus stuff) for a little bit, how do you think it's been helping your climbing? Have you changed the workout some since you last posted? As some have observed, it seems like your focus is on longer crack routes; do you feel like this routine is better suited to crack climbing (maybe because the pullups add more of a total arm/shoulder workout)?

Cheers,
David


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By Mark E Dixon
From Sprezzatura, Someday
Jan 2, 2013
At the BRC

JLP wrote:
This is about 95% of what I take away from these MP.com training threads: No offense to anyone in this particular thread. Purely generic. I'm a typical poster with a 5.8 profile, and a busy hardworking yuppie with precisely 1 hr, 2 days a week to train. I want something efficient and equal to spending countless boring days aimlessly dorking around on real rock. No time. Real rock is scary, too. Living in Peoria IL hasn't helped things, either. The overwhelming suggestion, mostly from the same 3-5 posters, coupled with a random army of others and their 5.10 profiles and countless hours on Google reading about shit like 15 degree joint angles - is that I hang board - because, after all, that's what all 5.14 climbers do and therefore that must be what I need to do to climb 5.14. The logic is perfectly sound. In fact, the hang board is so efficient, I can spend the rest of my week masturbating on these forums. Game day is arriving soon, so it's time for a few 4x4's and I'm good to go. A couple blinks later and I'm a master of any terrain. What used to take the best decades has since been refined, to say the least. My training log clearly shows I've put in 20 hours of hard work - over the past decade. When I die on Cat Slab, they'll say I'm "experienced" in the Daily Camera. When I look in the mirror, I see that shirtless, sweaty guy in the gym, cranking one 5.13 after another. I could do the same, no problem, it's just that I haven't tried anything that hard yet. I feel awesome on 10c, though. Yeah, there's more to it than that, and I know it. I'm a smart one, but I'm 50 lbs overweight - because I'm lazy and eat like shit - but my mental game is sharp. I have plans to "convert" that fat into muscle with Gluten Free Twinkies. After I pay off my hang board, I vow to start buying more expensive groceries at Whole Foods. And on and onů The Internet Training Plan...


Hey JLP, I think your hatred for amateur weekend climbers has erased your ability to accurately read MP training forum posts. Sure, there are the occasional "I'm a cool kayaking girl who's been climbing for two weeks, please tell me how to train" posts. I admit I skimmed that thread, but IIRC, she was treated with completely uncalled for civility and the responses suggested more climbing and work on technique.

I've asked a number of questions on training MP and have received many helpful, thoughtful and thought provoking responses.


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By steph davis
Jan 3, 2013

Hi David,
Feel free to write me anytime! steph@highinfatuation.com I always do my best to answer questions, or find someone who is more expert on the topic than I am. I was just talking to my friend (i.e. volunteer personal trainer) Kingsley about hangboard stuff today. Wow is it complicated....it involves both tadata timers AND stopwatches, not to mention a lot of stuff far more specific than I tend to be. I realize that in the past I've always trained for routes on the routes themselves. Now that I have a home base and am more busy with other stuff than I used to be, I'm really interested in learning more about climbing-oriented training. So long story short, I've been campusing, and Kingsley is all fired up to get me hangboarding as well as doing periodization (where you somehow figure out how to make yourself climb your best on a calendar....sounds interesting!). I asked him if he'd write a guest blog post for me, for other people who are interested in this stuff and would like a blow-by-blow of what he does and why he thinks it works, and I think he is going to. So I'll keep you posted, over at my site :) Cheers to everyone for the links and ideas on here, and remember: if you're not having fun you're doing it wrong.


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