Tuning Fork - Bolt Removal

There are dozens of rusted mechanical bolts at our seaside crag that need to be removed and replaced. From what I understand, the bolts are mostly 3/8" Fixe, not sure if wedge or rawl, definitely not button-head. What I need, apparently, is a #4 BD Lost Arrow bored out to look like a tuning fork.

Can I buy this from the ASCA? If so, how? And would it work for what I'm trying to do?

Is there somebody whom I could have one shipped to and make it into a tuning fork?

There are people who have posted about this before, and it seemed to come down to getting in touch with people who make these (who may not make them anymore). If a knowledgeable soul is willing to help me, I will of course reimburse in the manner of your choosing, and delete this thread.

EDIT :: This is what we're trying to remove...

Petzl Long Life (P38) nail-driven bolt (304 steel, 12mm)

If they're 3/8in with exposed threads (Wedge Bolts) the tuning fork MIGHT work but pretty unlikely. The tuning fork was really developed for removal of old 1/4in compression bolts from BITD. 3/8in wedges are a whole other beast. Seaside you're looking at likely replacing with either Ti or Duplex glue ins. It depends on the exact location but assume SCC is an issue to be safe. From the reports I've seen, you'll probably end up chopping the rusted studs, patching and drilling new holes for the glue ins.

mattm wrote:If they're 3/8in with exposed threads (Wedge Bolts) the tuning fork MIGHT work but pretty unlikely... From the reports I've seen, you'll probably end up chopping the rusted studs, patching and drilling new holes for the glue ins.

How do we chop them, then? Hammer + screwdriver?

Nate Ball wrote: How do we chop them, then? Hammer + screwdriver?

IMHO, when replacing wedge bolts, always worth it to put the tuning fork on first. 9/10 times it won't extract the bolt, but it moves the stud out a ways.

A hacksaw blade wrapped with tape at the ends will cut the stud pretty close to the wall. I like to cut a bit with the hacksaw blade, tap with the hammer and expand the kerf, repeat. Usually the stud shears off pretty nicely after it's been cut ~2/3 of the way through.

A pin punch is a nice way to drive the remaining stud back into the hole.

The reason I use the tuning fork regardless is that a lot of the time the hole isn't drilled with any extra depth. If you pull the stud out a little bit, chop, then drive it back in the hole, you'll have a little bit more of a divot for patching.

Locker...

Guideline #1: don't be a jerk

This is why nobody but argumentative pissants post on these forums. I had read McNamara's article, which is why I was posting for more relevant, experience-related advice. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. If you're feeling helpful, why don't you come over to Taiwan - where nobody has "a real clue" and "have at it"?

Because right now, these bolts are time bombs.

Mike...

Thank you very much.

Sounds like I should try to get a hold of some tuning forks. Anyone out there?

Locker. It's simple: don't be a jerk. Thanks for the link.

supertopo.com/climbers-foru…

This thread shows Rogers modifies forks, which are much larger and would most certainly work for a 3/8th stud in some fashion. You will need an angle grinder and water or coolant for the cutting process.

I have removed 3/8th stud bolts with my modified crowbar. Pretty cheap to make, but there are no guarantees in bolt removal.

If all else fails, beat the stud back and forth, chop it flush and punch it back in below the surface, then patch and drill a new hole.

Contact Mark Hudon on this site and he will make you a set of tuning forks and give you all the beta you need.

Easiest way to chop a wedge is simply crank on the thing until you over torque it and it snaps off. Usually it both pulls the bolt out a bit and snaps off below the surface so you can tap it in and patch over it. No tuning fork needed.

The tuning fork is really for trying to preserve the hole for reuse when pulling old 1/4in and 5/16th compression bolts. If you want to reuse the wedge bolt hole you're probably looking at coring out the bolt and a glue in after - A lot of work but worthy if you can pull it off.

Petzl P38

This is what we're dealing with: Petzl P38's. No nut or bolt to torque on. 12mm, almost half-inch.

Then what?

I'll get in touch with Mark.

I have pulled 4 of those. They were 2" or 2.25" long

You need to drill out the center with a HSS bit.

Problem is that set nail in the center, so you start very small and bore a 1/4" deep with a small bit, slowly working your way up to a 17/64ths or 1/4", then on to the 3/8.

You weaken the remaining portion of the bored out stud, enough to remove the hanger. Then screw an appropriate size lag bot into the hole you created in the bolt sleeve.

This gives you some leverage to work with. Beat that around a bit with the ole hammer and it will come out in one piece.

It sucked, and I burned through 2 bits that were cheap.

The last Petzl long life I removed by working it back and forth with chisels, and ended up getting the whole enchilada out after about 45min.

Best tamper proof bolt out there in that style.

Locker wrote:I wasn't being a jerk. I was being, me!

Guideline #1: don't be a Locker

;)

Matt N wrote: Guideline #1: don't be a Locker ;)

HA!

Hey Nate,

I have experience with pulling 3/8"ers in both sandstone and Granite in my area. Here are a few tips.
First, please consider the conceivable damage you may inflict on the rock while trying to remove the bolt. Smashing back and forth can create quite a mess. I have been replacing bolts with the ASCA for quite a while now and have come up against nearly every situation. Being in Taiwan you may have issues coming across some of materials needed for replacement. Unless the bolts are extremely deteriorated making a tuning fork from a piton will not last and deform very quickly. I made my own version of it by getting a section of leaf spring from the scrap yard and having a shop waterjet a 3/8" slot 2-3" deep. I ground down to make a taper/point. I also welded a piece of metal that was perpendicularly to the leafspring and tapered from about 1/2 to nothing. The thicket part meeting flush with the end of the leaf spring to create a "T" that was good for striking against.
I made two of these and drilled a hole for a keeper sling, and now you have a robust tool to remove 3/8" and two of them allow you to stack them as you get them out.

Second is creating a striking surface. I made a large oval out of sheet metal 1/8" thick, about 4" wide and 8" long that had a 1/2" slot cut to 1/3" of the distance form the peak of oval to the center. I also made a keeper sling. Once you get enough clearance between hanger and rock, you can slide plate under it, then slide tuning fork and strike at will allowing you not to be grinding/striking the rock any more than you have to.

If you find that the bolts are in better condition than you thought in the hole, I would recommend only wedging enough space to get a hacksaw between rock and hanger and cutting off the the bolt. You can then use a center punch, pound stud in, and patch with a two part concrete paste patch.

I have also modified pry-bars you buy from hardware stores into the tuning forks as they are high carbon steel.

If you come across bolts that are not the Petzl longlife get a breaker bar and a socket that is 6 sided and torque the bolt. It usually shears sub-surface and you can patch easily.
Let me know if you have any questions.

One other thought: The P38 looks like it's a 304 stainless. Are they corroding at your seaside crag? What are you going to replace them with?

Nate Ball wrote: This is what we're dealing with: Petzl P38's. No nut or bolt to torque on. 12mm, almost half-inch. Then what? I'll get in touch with Mark.

I heard tell you can pull those kinda bolts by grinding off the top, which might release the pin. Maybe pop them after grinding with a hammer to loosen them up, then, use a tuning fork under the hanger.

Or, core drill them. Stainless seems softer than grade 5. You'd end up with a much bigger hole, but, with the larger diamater Ti bolts you'll be gluing in, shouldn't be an issue...

Mike McHugh wrote:One other thought: The P38 looks like it's a 304 stainless. Are they corroding at your seaside crag? What are you going to replace them with?

I'm not sure about the P38 specifically. Surely there are many others scattered about of all different types. Some of them are snapping off under falls or even body weight. They have been mostly replaced by 316 glue-ins (which are also suspect), though the mechanicals were left in the wall.

This also means, unfortunately, that we won't be replacing them with titanium any time soon.

Jesse Zacher wrote:. First, please consider the conceivable damage you may inflict on the rock while trying to remove the bolt.

Exactly. Plus there is not really anything to beat back and fourth, other than the hanger. Stud/ nail-drive bolts are fairly low profile and it would be pretty hard to do anything useful with a hammer. Unfortunately those bolts are very hard to remove. As others have said, the best option is to cut it off or drill the center out. An angle grinder is an option.

Another option is to use a cutting torch which will get the job done pretty fast. However, working with a torch at height is a pretty serious risk. You MUST use two ropes, and the working line should be heat resistant (Beal makes fire-retardant ropes and heat shields for ropes). You also have to cover your harness in a thick leather welding jacket to ensure you dont melt your harness. It's pretty serious work for sure and it is really only feasible in a desert-type environment where you wont burn everything to the ground.

You may want to consider replacing the bolts with titanium so you dont have to go through this again in the future. If you need some Ti bolts let me know and I can put you in touch with a supplier.

We´ve replaced a fair few of these as they were popular for a while in Europe.
First you try to pull them directly out with a hydraulic puller, a lot of them come out easily this way as they are very dependent on accurate hole size (and hold badly in the soft rock we work with mostly).
If they don´t slide out then either drill out the pin (an appalling job) or continue with the puller until the hanger rips off.
Then either core drill the bolt out which leaves a big hole or drill another 12mm/1/2" hole directly below/touching the bolt and smash it with a punch down (and up) until it comes loose. Some guys instead drill 4/6mm holes around half the bolt to do the same thing which is probably better.

Okay, so to summarize...

For the most prevalent Petzl nail-driven long lifers we will be removing, we will have to either drill out the head to release the hanger then work the sleeve til it can be pulled out, or drill a new hole(s). Or we could put a torch cutter to it. Or a hydraulic puller. I would like to reduce the amount of damage we do to the rock, but it looks like we're going to be doing a lot of drilling.

If we have hex bolts, we can torque them off with a breaker bar and patch them.

Here is a pic of the culprit...

Wouldn't you trust it?

Our tuning forks are ONLY for 1/4" bolts (6mm), they will bend open and snap on 5/16" (8mm) let alone something huge like a Long-life (12mm).

Some people have made larger tuning forks, but they tend to scar the rock, and there's no way they would work on something as large as a Long-life.

I'm pretty sure Long-lifes have always been 316ss. If they are snapping then titanium glue-ins are the only option for your crag, the 316ss glue-ins will start snapping sooner or later.