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Tri-axially loaded carabiners for autobelay mounting at Rocksport in Reno, NV
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Keep an eye on your gym rats. |
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I just recently learned about tri-axially loading biners from a buddy.. so I have no room to pass judgement, but It's nerve racking at the very least to see a gym doing this haha |
Jovid wrote: Good thing you sign all them waivers eh.Gym wavers will protect them from being sued against natural dangers associated with climbing, it wont necessarily protect them from negligence, which this is. |
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its bad practice but that setup wont fail because of the tri-axial loading with the forces involved in a TR belay ... especially as there are two chains and biners  theres no reason to set it up that way ;) |
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Wow, I'm thinking steel quick link would be a much better option here than aluminum locking biners. Those are some crap-tastic setups. Understandably they are just top rope loads and the autobelays themselves take up a lot of forces with them clutch systems they employ, but come on, steel quick links. |
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those look like petzl williams ball and triact locks .. theyre aluminum |
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I was the one who originally posted these pictures to Facebook after talking to the gym employees about it for around 4 months with no action taken. I also pinged Chris Burton, a good friend who managed the Gym in Vegas for years and is now the lead rigger for Dolby Theater (pro rigger 15 years) to see his thoughts. Willful negligence is the term he used. BD posted years ago that nose loaded biners (almost every one in this installation), especially in tri-load scenarios can fail at less than 10% of their rated strength. Think about that in this scenario. These things are routinely shock loaded, probably 100s of times a day. |
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this kind of install needs 3/8 steel shackles and GAC flex slings. not climbing gear. |
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those carabiners arent nose hooked ... for nose hooking to occur the gate has to be open and the nose needs to be hooked on the notch  blackdiamondequipment.com/e… ;) |
John Wilder wrote: HMS carabiners have a curious weakness compared to many other carabiners- they are VERY weak when loaded on the nose of the carabiner, even when the gate is closed. This is likely what the poster above is referring to. I seem to remember someone doing some testing on HMS carabiners loaded this way, and they failed at crazy low loads- hundreds of pounds, not thousands.do you have a link to the tests? it would be interesting as we use HMS biners all the time for grigris ... and its not unknown for the grigri to get caught up right by the gate ... heres more info on nose hooking ... thebmc.co.uk/Handlers/Downl… ;) |
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When I climbed there, autobelays were hooked up properly, without this BS. |
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For what it is worth, I have tested a few nose hooked biners with the gate closed, similar to the orientation shown in the autobelay photos. I found they fail around their minor access rating (sometimes a bit lower), although I dident test a giant sample size. Now, if the gate is open, the failure strength drops drastically, about 2kN on average from what I have tested. While I hate to agree with Bearbreeder, or even bother to mention his name, he is right—GriGris and ATCs get nose hooked on biners all the time and I have yet to see one fail while belaying. |
20 kN wrote:. While I hate to agree with Bearbreeder, or even bother to mention his name, he is right—GriGris and ATCs get nose hooked on biners all the time and I have yet to see one fail while belaying. Either way, crap setup.Ai RUUUUUUV u 2 !!! hers a triaxial loading on pear and oval steel biners .... while aluminum biners might have different results, it does give you an idea of the strength reduction .... note that in one of the tests the sling is basically on the nose of the pear biner .... interestingly enuff the reduction in strength is greatly reduced when the triaxial force is on the narrower side of the pear biner youtube.com/watch?v=g730mHD… something to keep in mind for those basket hitches ;) |
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Unless you're anchored tight to the ground, the force on your belaying caribiner isn't ever going to be too high. Once the force exceeds your weight, you go off the ground reducing any significant increase above bodyweight. Even if the strength was reduced to 2kn, that's still double what mos of us weigh. Probably why I've never heard of someone dying when the belay device carabiner snapped. |
bearbreeder wrote: interestingly enuff the reduction in strength is greatly reduced when the triaxial force is on the narrower side of the pear biner youtube.com/watch?v=g730mHD… something to keep in mind for those basket hitches ;)How is that interesting? The load is closer to the spine in that configuration so I would expect it to be stronger. |
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Bwahahahaha, Bearhumpin' & 1/2 @ 40oz. Always crack me up! 8) |
20 kN wrote: How is that interesting? The load is closer to the spine in that configuration so I would expect it to be stronger.well RUUUUV of my MP life <3 its interesting as a basket hitch or some triaxial loading of carabiners is not unusual in the climbing world if you want the maximum strength from a basket hitch then make sure that the basket is on the narrow side of the biner ... this might not be self evident for normal folks who arent MP "experts" ;) |
bearbreeder wrote: well RUUUUV of my MP life <3 its interesting as a basket hitch or some triaxial loading of carabiners is not unusual in the climbing world if you want the maximum strength from a basket hitch then make sure that the basket is on the narrow side of the biner ... this might not be self evident for normal folks who arent MP "experts" ;)What'cha wanna' bet, the angle those basket hitched slings enter/load the carabiner, also has a great effect? Use "excessively" long slings on 'yer basket hitch, saw some silly fool almost deck from one so tight around a tree that he was struggling to clip the 'biner! It was loading on the GATE after he set up, but he knew better than I did ;) Lucky for him I'm nice, & backed up his carp while he was on the way back down......... |
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Yet another reason to get sketched by autobelays :P |
Chalon Chaney wrote:What'cha wanna' bet, the angle those basket hitched slings enter/load the carabiner, also has a great effect? Use "excessively" long slings on 'yer basket hitch, saw some silly fool almost deck from one so tight around a tree that he was struggling to clip the 'biner! It was loading on the GATE after he set up, but he knew better than I did ;) Lucky for him I'm nice, & backed up his carp while he was on the way back down.........you sir are absolutely right that the angle of the hitch makes a big difference ...  now i just need to go breed some 20kn rated beahs !!! ;) |
John Wilder wrote: HMS carabiners have a curious weakness compared to many other carabiners- they are VERY weak when loaded on the nose of the carabiner, even when the gate is closed. This is likely what the poster above is referring to. I seem to remember someone doing some testing on HMS carabiners loaded this way, and they failed at crazy low loads- hundreds of pounds, not thousands.While not technically nose hooked, they are loaded directly at the nose. This is what I was referring too. The angle of force on these biners on the bi-loaded side is somewhere in the 150 degree range |
