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By Jake D.
From Northeast
Oct 16, 2013
KevinK wrote:
I'll add my own story: Once at a gym I heard the gym manager say that they had the Gri Gri 1s since the gym opened and on constant top rope duty for 10 years and they still worked like new. That's a lot of ropes that they went through during that time. Meanwhile, there are lots of reports of how the Cinch needs to be replaced after a few years of much less use. Just from a cost perspective, the Gri Gri is a much better deal, even if it is $20 more initially.



top roping in a clean room on ropes that get replaced fairly regularly isn't a very good comparison to normal use outdoors in various conditions.

They keep nylon draws hanging on lead routes for many years too but that doesn't mean you should outdoors when UV and weather hit them all day.

Wear is situational. gear that gets used 200 days a year in gritty areas is going to wear much faster than 100 days per year where it's mostly leaves and hard dirt. there is also no set limit on when you should replace a Cinch or a Grigri... you have to decide when it is worn out.

FLAG
By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Oct 16, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after...
reboot wrote:
I think your reasoning on not to retire the Cinch is quite flawed: It's a safety device, you shouldn't need to experience a malfunction personally to retire it, because the consequence is too severe.


I understand what you're saying. I didn't mean to infer that retirement of a piece of gear should only come after failure. I did not know that the GriGri has inherently more friction, because my Cinch and my GriGri perform as they are expected to with proper use- that is to say that they catch average lead falls (15-30ft) with zero rope slippage.

The argument seems to be "yeah, it works and performs flawlessly now, but one day it just won't, and no one really knows why." That's the part I have a problem with. No one can really offer any solid evidence other than "so and so burned his hand, but he grabbed the rope above the device so maybe..." or "dude got dropped but the belayer was fumbling with the device and might have been holding the cam open..."- which is all anecdotal. Nothing really explains why my Cinch is much more worn that the one here , yet it catches falls and locks up on a new, slick, treated 9.8 like it was fresh out of the box.

As a matter of fact, after KevinK's thread a few weeks ago, I went out and rapped on a 9.8. I tied a couple backup knots and bounced as hard as I could on the damn thing. I could not produce any slippage whatsoever. How is this possible with three years use averaging about 40-50 catches and about the same amount of lowers a week (admittedly more inside than out), and probably twice the wear of the one in the link above?

Logically speaking, shouldn't I have decked someone by now? I mean KevinK burned his hands and his climber, and the other one in the gym that was "purportedly" not caught by a Cinch, barely avoided death.

So, what gives? Cinch with some wear = decked climbers. Cinch with twice the wear = textbook catches. Why? It doesn't seem as if anyone can answer this question with a no-nonsense, non-anecdotal response.

I'm really not trying to be a pedantic prick here, I promise. If I come off that way, it's unintentional. I'm just trying to learn. I'm really looking for a reason to shitcan the thing at this point I believe. Thanks for indulging me.

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By Old Sag
Oct 16, 2013
Jake D. wrote:
top roping in a clean room on ropes that get replaced fairly regularly isn't a very good comparison to normal use outdoors in various conditions. They keep nylon draws hanging on lead routes for many years too but that doesn't mean you should outdoors when UV and weather hit them all day. Wear is situational. gear that gets used 200 days a year in gritty areas is going to wear much faster than 100 days per year where it's mostly leaves and hard dirt. there is also no set limit on when you should replace a Cinch or a Grigri... you have to decide when it is worn out.


I agree that using a piece of gear indoors vs outside is different.

I think gear manufacturers should provide warnings and guidance on when things need to be replaced to take the guess work out. Because if it fails and it is suppose to save your life, it could be too late. What if they etched some sort of marking on the device and said "if your device is worn to the point where the marking is invisible, it is time to retire it." That would be great. You can say biners and webbings don't have this and that's fine, but these mechanical devices are more complex and it is not a prerequisite to understand how something works to use it safely according to specification.

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By Old Sag
Oct 16, 2013
Jake Jones wrote:
I understand what you're saying. I didn't mean to infer that retirement of a piece of gear should only come after failure. I did not know that the GriGri has inherently more friction, because my Cinch and my GriGri perform as they are expected to with proper use- that is to say that they catch average lead falls (15-30ft) with zero rope slippage. The argument seems to be "yeah, it works and performs flawlessly now, but one day it just won't, and no one really knows why." That's the part I have a problem with. No one can really offer any solid evidence other than "so and so burned his hand, but he grabbed the rope above the device so maybe..." or "dude got dropped but the belayer was fumbling with the device and might have been holding the cam open..."- which is all anecdotal. Nothing really explains why my Cinch is much more worn that the one here , yet it catches falls and locks up on a new, slick, treated 9.8 like it was fresh out of the box. As a matter of fact, after KevinK's thread a few weeks ago, I went out and rapped on a 9.8. I tied a couple backup knots and bounced as hard as I could on the damn thing. I could not produce any slippage whatsoever. How is this possible with three years use averaging about 40-50 catches and about the same amount of lowers a week (admittedly more inside than out), and probably twice the wear of the one in the link above? Logically speaking, shouldn't I have decked someone by now? I mean KevinK burned his hands and his climber, and the other one in the gym that was "purportedly" not caught by a Cinch, barely avoided death. So, what gives? Cinch with some wear = decked climbers. Cinch with twice the wear = textbook catches. Why? It doesn't seem as if anyone can answer this question with a no-nonsense, non-anecdotal response. I'm really not trying to be a pedantic prick here, I promise. If I come off that way, it's unintentional. I'm just trying to learn. I'm really looking for a reason to shitcan the thing at this point I believe. Thanks for indulging me.


Can you post a picture of the inside of your Cinch? That might help use figure out if it is worn out or not.

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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Oct 16, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after...
KevinK wrote:
Can you post a picture of the inside of your Cinch? That might help use figure out if it is worn out or not.


cinch 1
cinch 1


cinch 2
cinch 2


cinch 3
cinch 3


cinch 4
cinch 4

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By Old Sag
Oct 16, 2013
Jake Jones wrote:


It looks pretty well used, for sure.

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By Jake D.
From Northeast
Oct 16, 2013
KevinK wrote:
I agree that using a piece of gear indoors vs outside is different. I think gear manufacturers should provide warnings and guidance on when things need to be replaced to take the guess work out. Because if it fails and it is suppose to save your life, it could be too late. What if they etched some sort of marking on the device and said "if your device is worn to the point where the marking is invisible, it is time to retire it." That would be great. You can say biners and webbings don't have this and that's fine, but these mechanical devices are more complex and it is not a prerequisite to understand how something works to use it safely according to specification.



Does a gri gri need markings? or an ATC? People have decided when an ATC was worn out for decades now without markings on it. What about your rope?

singling out one device because people have screwed up it's operation is a pretty weak argument.

Just the fact that people can't reproduce the failures consistently shows pretty damn well that it's a user error and not a device problem. If you don't have the motor skills to use it properly, don't use it.

when grigris first came out people were holding down the cams and dropping people like crazy with the lever wide open.. and there were plenty of threads just like this saying people should use ATC's.

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By pfwein
From Boulder, CO
Oct 16, 2013
Jake D. wrote:
. . . Just the fact that people can't reproduce the failures consistently shows pretty damn well that it's a user error and not a device problem. If you don't have the motor skills to use it properly, don't use it.

A problem is that you don't know if you have the motor skills to use it until someone gets dropped.

FLAG
 
By Jake D.
From Northeast
Oct 16, 2013
pfwein wrote:
A problem is that you don't know if you have the motor skills to use it until someone gets dropped.


Yep, unless you learn to use it correctly and can demonstrate that.

I have never used a Grigri for lead belaying because i do not like the ergonomics of it. Which also means I have no other habits when i use the Cinch.

i'll take some pics and a video and maybe that will help show what has worked for me.

FLAG
By Bill C.
From Fort Collins, CO
Oct 16, 2013
My biggest problem with the cinch is that it is basically impossible to feed slack without actually physically manipulating the device in some way (ie, touching it).

The only way devices like the grigri and cinch can result in failure (excluding improper set up, but then again you can setup any device wrong) is when dumb climbers impede it's ability for it to operate properly.

When I belay with a grigri, I only touch the cam BRIEFLY to feed a quick armful of slack, and then I'm right back to a "normal" position with my hands on the rope and nowhere else. If you added up the amount of time I'm touching my grigri for a typical 100 foot pitch, its probably not more than 3-5 seconds TOTAL. This cannot be done with a cinch, which to me opens up doors for people to find new and creative ways to make the device not work the way it was intended.

If you cant feed rope through a grigri without squeezing the cam open, your rope is too fat for the device or you dont know how to use it.

FLAG
By Jake D.
From Northeast
Oct 16, 2013
Bill C. wrote:
My biggest problem with the cinch is that it is basically impossible to feed slack without actually physically manipulating the device in some way (ie, touching it). The only way devices like the grigri and cinch can result in failure (excluding improper set up, but then again you can setup any device wrong) is when dumb climbers impede it's ability for it to operate properly. When I belay with a grigri, I only touch the cam BRIEFLY to feed a quick armful of slack, and then I'm right back to a "normal" position with my hands on the rope and nowhere else. If you added up the amount of time I'm touching my grigri for a typical 100 foot pitch, its probably not more than 3-5 seconds TOTAL. This cannot be done with a cinch, which to me opens up doors for people to find new and creative ways to make the device not work the way it was intended. If you cant feed rope through a grigri without squeezing the cam open, your rope is too fat for the device or you dont know how to use it.


youtu.be/B5z97uG4o_A

i barely touch the Cinch as well. Unless i'm feeding slack for clipping i'm actually holding the climber side in a locked position and the brake side with 3-4 fingers. I can feed 3' of slack in no time at all and am back. I should have a 15' race with someone with a gri gri some day and see who wins ;)

unlike holding the cam of the grigri down my thumb hardly needs any pressure to release slack.. this also means it doesn't take much for my thumb to move off that position.

FLAG
By Bill C.
From Fort Collins, CO
Oct 16, 2013
Jake D. wrote:
youtu.be/B5z97uG4o_A i barely touch the Cinch as well. Unless i'm feeding slack for clipping i'm actually holding the climber side in a locked position and the brake side with 3-4 fingers. I can feed 3' of slack in no time at all and am back. I should have a 15' race with someone with a gri gri some day and see who wins ;) unlike holding the cam of the grigri down my thumb hardly needs any pressure to release slack.. this also means it doesn't take much for my thumb to move off that position.



Jake, I challenge you to feed slack without touching it AT ALL. Unless Im hugely mistaken, it cant be done. No matter how you are holding it, you are temporarily stopping the device from locking when rope passes through. Grigris on the other hand, are designed to let rope slide through.

At a gym I was showing someone why I didnt like the cinch and was holding it exactly as you are in your video. A cinch loving friend of mine snuck up behind me to try and prove me wrong by yanking the climber side of the rope while I wasnt paying attention. I was startled, squeezed harder, and about 6 feet of slack wizzed through the device before the heat of rope burn pulled my hand completely off the rope, at which point it locked.

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By Jake D.
From Northeast
Oct 16, 2013
show me in a video of you feeding out slack like you would pay out a clip without touching a gri gri. I call BS

when i'm not paying out for a clip my thumb is not on the plate.

sounds like you don't have the motor skills for a Cinch.

FLAG
By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Oct 16, 2013
if your climber clips at their waist or doesn't yank rope hard, you can easily pay slack out on a grigri as you would with an atc. I rarely use the thumb method when I'm belaying on gear. usually just bolts and harder than 5.10.

if you're like me and yank rope fast and more than a few inches, though, you need to use your thumb to disengage the cam momentarily.

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By Bill C.
From Fort Collins, CO
Oct 16, 2013
Bill C. wrote:
When I belay with a grigri, I only touch the cam BRIEFLY to feed a quick armful of slack, and then I'm right back to a "normal" position with my hands on the rope and nowhere else. If you added up the amount of time I'm touching my grigri for a typical 100 foot pitch, its probably not more than 3-5 seconds TOTAL.



I quoted myself for nostalgia. Look at the grigri instructional videos on youtube. Even sharma can pay slack without touching the device.

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By Bill C.
From Fort Collins, CO
Oct 16, 2013
Jake D. wrote:
show me in a video of you feeding out slack like you would pay out a clip without touching a gri gri. I call BS when i'm not paying out for a clip my thumb is not on the plate. sounds like you don't have the motor skills for a Cinch.



The challenge is still out there. Make a video of yourself paying slack without touching the cinch at all, and I'll forever bow down to you and your advanced motor skills

FLAG
 
By Jake D.
From Northeast
Oct 16, 2013
John Wilder wrote:
if your climber clips at their waist or doesn't yank rope hard, you can easily pay slack out on a grigri as you would with an atc. I rarely use the thumb method when I'm belaying on gear. usually just bolts and harder than 5.10. if you're like me and yank rope fast and more than a few inches, though, you need to use your thumb to disengage the cam momentarily.


exactly, if someone is on a warm up or on gear when you have tons of time. when someone is at their limit or on steep stuff when a fast clip might be the only shot at it you need rope to go out fast.

i belay the same no matter what.. warm up, gear, project.. it is super easy to throw out some rope and be away from the plate

sure looks pretty similar to me.

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By Jake D.
From Northeast
Oct 16, 2013
Bill C. wrote:
I quoted myself for nostalgia. Look at the grigri instructional videos on youtube. Even sharma can pay slack without touching the device.





you mean like 2:14 when the guy grabs the grigri while letting go of the brake hand? or 4:02 when he holds the cam down with his thumb?

or the picture on petzls site?


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By Bill C.
From Fort Collins, CO
Oct 16, 2013
I have freely said that I hold the cam down for BRIEF periods of time.

The second picture you posted is the method I use. And Im pretty sure Myself, John, and Petzl put emphasis on the fact that this is done only BRIEFLY. Like for a fraction of a second.

The point I am trying to make is that the ONLY way to feed slack with a cinch is to hold the cam open ALL the time.

Im merely expressing my opinion that it is perhaps safer to avoid altering how a device is supposed to function by keeping your hand glued to it. No need to get all butt hurt about it...

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By Jake D.
From Northeast
Oct 16, 2013
Bill C. wrote:
I have freely said that I hold the cam down for BRIEF periods of time. The second picture you posted is the method I use. And Im pretty sure Myself, John, and Petzl put emphasis on the fact that this is done only BRIEFLY. Like for a fraction of a second. The point I am trying to make is that the ONLY way to feed slack with a cinch is to hold the cam open ALL the time. Im merely expressing my opinion that it is perhaps safer to avoid altering how a device is supposed to function by keeping your hand glued to it. No need to get all butt hurt about it...


Then you have a horrible understanding of how the Cinch is used. You already proved that you react poorly to a fall when you squeezed the Cinch instead of sliding your hand to the brake. I've caught falls while flying 15' up the wall.

I show in my video that i use my thumb BRIEFLY (i can do caps too!) and keep my fingers on the brake at all times. I touch as briefly if not more briefly as you do with the petzl picture.

2nd picture looks like your hand is touching the device.. you said you could do it without touching the device.

here's a pic of me catching a 30' fall while being pulled to the first bolt

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By Bill C.
From Fort Collins, CO
Oct 16, 2013
Jake D. wrote:
Then you have a horrible understanding of how the Cinch is used. You already proved that you react poorly to a fall when you squeezed the Cinch instead of sliding your hand to the brake. I've caught falls while flying 15' up the wall. I show in my video that i use my thumb BRIEFLY (i can do caps too!) and keep my fingers on the brake at all times. I touch as briefly if not more briefly as you do with the petzl picture. 2nd picture looks like your hand is touching the device.. you said you could do it without touching the device. here's a pic of me catching a 30' fall while being pulled to the first bolt



I bow down to you and your superiority.

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By bearbreeder
Oct 16, 2013
folks ... theres no reason to buy a cinch these days ... back with the gri gri 1, its heavier weight, the rope limitations, etc ... and before the wear/dropping issues with the cinch and the DAV warnings were known, sure a cinch made sense

but these days, you might as well buy a gri gri 2

- the weight is now the same
- the rope handling diameter is the same
- the price at MEC is the same
- the gri gri is a proven device with few issues that has been in use for decades
- the gri gri is known to last a long time, its used by big wall climbers, the top sport climbers, etc ...
- it is THE standard device for sport climbing, basically every climber that does hard sport "knows" how to use one (no guarantee of belay attention though) ... if you climb alot of hard sport anyone should be able to hand you a gri gri and you should be fine with it
- i dont aid climb much, but im told by those who do that the gri gri is the standard big wall aid climbing device for hours on belay
- now its not a "hands free" device ... but its probably the most "reliable" of the common assisted lockers ... people use it for TR and lead soloing all the time, hopefully with the proper backups
- they are proven to last years and even a decade of solid use

the ONLY claimed advantage of the cinch these days is the ease of feeding out slack, but to do so it gives up the bend in the rope that a gri gri has ... in a worst case the gri gri will act as a low friction ATC, you should be able to hold the rope with diligence ... a cinch will not

not to mention that with proper practice i consider a gri gri to feed smoother than an ATC or smart except on stiff thick fuzzy ropes ...

add to the fact that many cinch users are NOT aware of the pin wear issue, at least the ones ive talked to ... or the need to look for it regularly

personally i prefer the mammut alpine smart for my uses ... but i am fully proficient with the gri gri and regularly practice catching whippers on it .... simply because most of my sport climbing partners use it

if you had to buy ONE assisted locker for sport climbing today ... my recommendation would be a gri gri 2 without question

;)

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By Old Sag
Oct 17, 2013
Jake D. wrote:
Does a gri gri need markings? or an ATC? People have decided when an ATC was worn out for decades now without markings on it. What about your rope? singling out one device because people have screwed up it's operation is a pretty weak argument. Just the fact that people can't reproduce the failures consistently shows pretty damn well that it's a user error and not a device problem. If you don't have the motor skills to use it properly, don't use it. when grigris first came out people were holding down the cams and dropping people like crazy with the lever wide open.. and there were plenty of threads just like this saying people should use ATC's.


I didn't single out Trango in my post. I said equipment manufacturers, so yeah, I think it would be a great feature to have in any life-saving device. And rope manufacturers do say how many UIAA falls the ropes take. I do know people who retire a rope after 6 falls, not even close to FF 2, and I know people who retire them after 200. Regardless, you have some figures to that you can use.

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By Jon H
From Boulder
Oct 17, 2013
At the matching crux
Bill C. wrote:
The point I am trying to make is that the ONLY way to feed slack with a cinch is to hold the cam open ALL the time.



This is patently false.

FLAG
 
By Bill C.
From Fort Collins, CO
Oct 17, 2013
Jon H wrote:
This is patently false.


Im still waiting for someone to show me...

FLAG


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