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Training for full-on dyno when pumped
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By juancho
Oct 10, 2012

Hi all,
First off Ė thanks to all the regular contributors. Iíve gleaned a lot of great info from this forum.

Hereís a question. Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere. Iím working on a boulder problem... starts with a couple campus moves, then traverses a hand rail with minimal feet for 8í or so, and finishes with an all-out dyno from a decent hold to the lip of the boulder. I can make it to the dyno, but by the time I get there my arms are shot and the hold isnít good enough to get a good shake.

Iím curious what you guys would recommend, as far as training in a conventional gym (I have access to a weight room, not a climbing gym.) Weighted pull-ups? Some kind of speed-power workout?
How can I summon max power for a dyno, when my arms are already cooked?

Thanks in advance for any advice.


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By TheBirdman
Oct 10, 2012

Weighted explosive pull-ups. Ideally, you'd be doing 4 x 4's but without access to a gym, that will be tough. Try a 10-20 lb. weight vest and instead of doing slow, smooth, and steady pull ups, try to really yard on the bar and explode upwards. Do intervals. 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off, as many as you can do.


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By Rajiv Ayyangar
From Portland, ME
Oct 10, 2012
Cut! Sadly my flash attempt met with dismal pump-failure two bolts later.

1) How hard is the problem?
2) What's the limiting factor? your arms or your fingers? Put it another way, if it were all jugs, could you then do the huck?
3) Is there any alternate beta that would allow you to climb with fewer moves, more weight on your feet, fewer feet-free moves, or find a rest somewhere?


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By PTZ
From Chicago/Colorado
Oct 10, 2012
Where? Wouldn't you like to know. You have to buy me a beer, then I will tell you.

I've found that hard boulder problems, happen right when they are supposed to. That is when your mind and body combine to not fall off that tall-ass breaking boulder.
You are probably strong enough right now, you just need the right feet, temps,freshness and attitude. Having chicks watch you helps too. Then you want to be a real man and send.
Rock on.


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By Dustin Drake
Oct 10, 2012

Try doing heavy finger rolls with a full wrist curl to pre-fatigue your forearms. Look at doing something like 5 sets of 10 reps with the heaviest weight you can handle at that range.

Then do explosive pull ups, body weight only. Really focus on accelerating your entire body up through bar. Try to only hold the bar with your fingers rather than fully grasping the bar with your entire hand and thumb.


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By juancho
Oct 12, 2012

Thanks for the replies. Iím not sure how hard it is yet, but suffice to say Iím at my limit. The limiting factor is definitely my arms. The holds are all pretty decent.

A smoother sequence may come together, and I agree with PTZís comments (chicks Ė the ultimate motivator!) but since I canít get up there for at least another week, I'm trying to think of ways to simulate the problem in the weight room.

Again, thanks, and Iíd love to hear more ideas.


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By AndyMac
From Center, CO
Oct 12, 2012

Want it! You obviously do, but I'm sure when you get to the move there's that doubt that creeps into your head. Stomp that shit! Turn off the doubt and try 110%, fully commit, train yourself to not back off even though your arms are shot and your fingers are opening. The physical will come but the mental just needs to be fully utilized.


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By Chas Waterman
Oct 12, 2012

Agree with Andymac... stomp that shit! also, stop lifting weights, just do more pull ups and watch bouldering movies on the internet when you can't lift your arms anymore.


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By Aerili
From Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 12, 2012
Duck face with Largo

TheBirdman wrote:
30 seconds on, 30 seconds off, as many as you can do.

As many as you can do? That is a great recipe for getting injured.

You should complete your power workout well before you feel that level of fatigue. It is about quality, not quantity, and you will see better results this way.


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By TheBirdman
Oct 12, 2012

Aerili wrote:
As many as you can do? That is a great recipe for getting injured. You should complete your power workout well before you feel that level of fatigue. It is about quality, not quantity, and you will see better results this way.


As many as you can do in 30 second sets. Not as many as you can do endlessly. Besides, your power will fail (and thus you would be unable to do any more repetitions) long before you reach the point of injury. I'm assuming he's not using the shallow two-fingered pockets on a hangboard, but is hanging off a normal bar.


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By Aerili
From Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 12, 2012
Duck face with Largo

TheBirdman wrote:
Besides, your power will fail (and thus you would be unable to do any more repetitions) long before you reach the point of injury.

Not true at all. But thanks for clarifying what you really meant in terms of "how many".


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By Rajiv Ayyangar
From Portland, ME
Oct 12, 2012
Cut! Sadly my flash attempt met with dismal pump-failure two bolts later.

juancho wrote:
Thanks for the replies. Iím not sure how hard it is yet, but suffice to say Iím at my limit. The limiting factor is definitely my arms. The holds are all pretty decent. A smoother sequence may come together, and I agree with PTZís comments (chicks Ė the ultimate motivator!) but since I canít get up there for at least another week, I'm trying to think of ways to simulate the problem in the weight room. Again, thanks, and Iíd love to hear more ideas.


What's your limit? We need more information. If the holds are all pretty decent, then why can't you get more feet? High toes and heel hooks tend to work on good rails. Very few problems actually force a campusing sequence... unless they're set in a gym.


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By TheBirdman
Oct 12, 2012

Aerili wrote:
Not true at all. But thanks for clarifying what you really meant in terms of "how many".


Really? I was under the impression pull-ups, even explosive ones (especially on a static bar as opposed to dynamic rings) were an extremely safe exercise in terms of exposing yourself to injury. Obviously, you can over-do it; you can over-do anything. But I've popped tendons on a hangboard on my first rep of the first set from trying holds that were too small. I can't say I've ever felt even close to injuring myself from pull-ups before fatigue set in and I was physically unable to do anymore. I have done reps of pull-ups to failure and like I said, I always fail due to fatigue and have never felt close to injury.

I analogize it to push-ups. My ability to do the push-ups fails long before I'm anywhere close to injuring the muscles involved in the exercise. I know you are coming from a physiology/kinesiology background so I'm interested to hear why you think such an exercise would expose you to injury. I just always thought of it as Power Endurance Training on a bar.

That being said, I do agree that you'll reap the greatest benefits in terms of power training by doing it when fresh and the quality matters much more than quantity. But as the OP said, he's trying a dyno at the end of the problem, thus he's attempting the move when he's already fatigued. To more accurately simulate the climbing goal, I'm of the opinion he should be training the movement when already fatigued since that is the situation he is going to encounter on the problem.


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By Aerili
From Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 13, 2012
Duck face with Largo

TheBirdman wrote:
Really? I was under the impression pull-ups, even explosive ones (especially on a static bar as opposed to dynamic rings) were an extremely safe exercise in terms of exposing yourself to injury.

Doing a movement repetitively, especially when it's explosive, is a good way to get injured because you are loading your soft tissues rapidly under moderately high forces and high accelerations in the same manner over and over. Tissues do suffer creep (deformation from stress), like any material, and when the mechanical stress applied to them becomes too high (without enough recovery to allow tissue restoration), you get injured. Thus, why you should limit the volume you perform such exercises. i.e. it doesn't mean you shouldn't do them, but it is the reason why you should not push to the bitter end.


Birdman wrote:
That being said, I do agree that you'll reap the greatest benefits in terms of power training by doing it when fresh and the quality matters much more than quantity. But as the OP said, he's trying a dyno at the end of the problem, thus he's attempting the move when he's already fatigued. To more accurately simulate the climbing goal, I'm of the opinion he should be training the movement when already fatigued since that is the situation he is going to encounter on the problem.

Yeah....now that I've thought about it, I don't think I agree with your theory. Training power while really fatigued is just a bad idea, even if those are the conditions under which he is doing the movement. He should still train power while fresh and stop before highly fatigued. Eventually, this should elicit enough gains in his recruitment that he will be less fatigued and more efficient during his actual performance later.

I don't know of any strength coaches who ensure their athletes are in a fatigued state before doing power workouts, regardless of playing conditions. Power workouts always come first and end while the athlete is still fairly fresh.

However, it is possible that the poster needs to work on pure strength first before he can implement an effective power program. Without a foundation of strength, training power isn't as useful or recommended.

Lastly, I forgot to mention that your suggestion of 1:1 rest-to-activity is totally off. Power training requires a much higher ratio of rest to activity time.... more like 3:1 (just to be general). Therefore, in your scenario, you should be resting 90 seconds, not 30. If this feels like too much rest, then your strength foundation is probably pretty good and you should add some more weight to your exercise. Otherwise, you're just not going to elicit the recruitment you think you are getting.


Oh yeah, I am confused about the OP's statement that his arms are too flamed to complete the move. There are a lot of muscles in the arm and several joints....exactly what muscles/part of the arm are we talking about? I really have no idea based on what he wrote.


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By Monomaniac
Administrator
From Morrison, CO
Oct 13, 2012
Pulling a small roof at 2/3 height on Mission Impossible.  Adam Sanders photo.

Aerili,

As usual you are right on the mark. However I think you were (under) exagerating a bit with this:

Aerili wrote:
Lastly, I forgot to mention that your suggestion of 1:1 rest-to-activity is totally off. Power training requires a much higher ratio of rest to activity time.... more like 3:1 (just to be general). Therefore, in your scenario, you should be resting 90 seconds, not 30. If this feels like too much rest, then your strength foundation is probably pretty good and you should add some more weight to your exercise. Otherwise, you're just not going to elicit the recruitment you think you are getting.


For TRUE power training, rest to work ratios should be MUCH higher, like on the order of 10 or 20 to 1. That may sound like a lot but it really isn't for a true "power" exercise which should be relatively short in duration by definition (say, less than 10 seconds).

For example, a typical campus set takes 5-10 seconds. At a relatively minimal 2 minute rest interval that's a ratio of somewhere between 12:1 and 24:1.


Of course, you did say "just to be general" :) And the exercise in question is not "power", so a 3:1 ratio may be adequate for this exercise, as long as we don't try to pretend its a power workout.


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By juancho
Oct 13, 2012

Great responses. Aerili, your last post in particular had some nice bits of info. Iím so primitive in my workouts, I wasnít aware that power (i.e. weighted or ďexplosiveĒ pull-upsÖ right?) should be done only when fresh.

>> Oh yeah, I am confused about the OP's statement that his arms are too flamed Ö

I know next to nothing about physiology, but itís the big muscles you use to crank an all-points-off dyno on overhanging rock.


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By Aerili
From Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 16, 2012
Duck face with Largo

Monomaniac wrote:
Aerili, As usual you are right on the mark. However I think you were (under) exagerating a bit with this: For TRUE power training, rest to work ratios should be MUCH higher, like on the order of 10 or 20 to 1. That may sound like a lot but it really isn't for a true "power" exercise which should be relatively short in duration by definition (say, less than 10 seconds).

It is probably true I occasionally type numbers mindlessly. But only occasionally. lol

I consider power exercises to be able to last up to 30 seconds. Even at 15-30 s durations, one can exert 75-90% maximum power. I went back to my books to refresh my memory and try to find out if there is an empirically recommended ratio-- and you are pretty close.

For exercises lasting 5-10 s (90-100% max power output), exercise-to-rest ratios are 1:12 - 1:20. For exercises lasting 15-30 s, ratios are 1:3 - 1:5. (I knew those 3's and 1's were floating around in my head for some reason...see, it was not as mindless as you imagine.)


Monomaniac wrote:
And the exercise in question is not "power", so a 3:1 ratio may be adequate for this exercise, as long as we don't try to pretend its a power workout.

I agree that pull-ups of any kind are difficult to make into a plyometric exercise because it is not conducive to a stretch-shortening cycle in the tendons in such movements. Most explosive upper body training involves throwing and pushing motions. However, I do believe creating a pull-up as explosively as possible can still contribute toward power development to some degree since power is about speed, after all.

I have a feeling gymnasts, especially male gymnasts, are one of the few athletes who perform explosive upper body pulling motions.

And although climbers seem to be in love with "power" training, the reality is that climbing is still mostly "slow".



juancho wrote:
I know next to nothing about physiology, but itís the big muscles you use to crank an all-points-off dyno on overhanging rock.

Even using descriptors like "forearms", "shoulders", "biceps [upper arms]", "all of the above" would be more precise.

By the way, power training refers to the amount of weight (force) you move for a given speed (therefore distance per time matters).

Oh yeah, you made me think of the dude who had a talent for dyno'ing in Front Range Freaks. Check it out if you can. ;)


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By Rajiv Ayyangar
From Portland, ME
Oct 16, 2012
Cut! Sadly my flash attempt met with dismal pump-failure two bolts later.

Aerili wrote:
I have a feeling gymnasts, especially male gymnasts, are one of the few athletes who perform explosive upper body pulling motions. And although climbers seem to be in love with "power" training, the reality is that climbing is still mostly "slow".


Ever watched hard bouldering? (or a fast climber like Sean Mccoll, Adam Ondra?).


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By Monomaniac
Administrator
From Morrison, CO
Oct 16, 2012
Pulling a small roof at 2/3 height on Mission Impossible.  Adam Sanders photo.

Aerili wrote:
I agree that pull-ups of any kind are difficult to make into a plyometric exercise because it is not conducive to a stretch-shortening cycle in the tendons in such movements. Most explosive upper body training involves throwing and pushing motions. However, I do believe creating a pull-up as explosively as possible can still contribute toward power development to some degree since power is about speed, after all.


I think a pullup could be used as a "power" exercise, but not with a set duration of 30 seconds (assuming this means 30 seconds of more or less constant contraction). At the most I could see up to 3 reps. Beyond that I would not consider the exercise to be "power". That was my point in saying the described activity does not meet my definition of "power" training.


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By Aerili
From Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 16, 2012
Duck face with Largo

Monomaniac wrote:
I think a pullup could be used as a "power" exercise, but not with a set duration of 30 seconds (assuming this means 30 seconds of more or less constant contraction). At the most I could see up to 3 reps. Beyond that I would not consider the exercise to be "power". That was my point in saying the described activity does not meet my definition of "power" training.

Yeah I understand and would generally agree that a pull-up set of 30 sec duration is not going to develop explosive power or max recruitment. (If that is what one so desires.)


Rajiv Ayyangar wrote:
Ever watched hard bouldering? (or a fast climber like Sean Mccoll, Adam Ondra?).

I'm not saying that hard bouldering doesn't require power or that power training isn't useful in such endeavors. But that doesn't disprove my statement that, regardless, the majority of climbing is "slow".


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By slim
Administrator
Oct 16, 2012
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

to the OP - if you skip the start, are you able to hit the dyno? i'm surprised nobody has asked this yet. if you can't hit it while you are totally fresh, that is where you need to start. then work backwards - link the last 2 moves into the dyno, then the last 4 moves or so, etc.


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By Howrad McGreehan
Oct 17, 2012

Do you have a rock gym nearby, juancho?

There's a hundred-million ways to train for rock climbing, and it's hard to tell what works, and what doesn't; it's a very specific sport, as we all know.

As far as dyno training goes, I have close friends at the local gym, and we all kind of climb together. Most of us are boulderers and we like to fool around. At times we may decide it's DYNO TIME! And we proceed to screw around and jump to holds. It's normally to something juggy, but working hard climbing, then messing around on some dynos is a blast.

I've just re-read the first post which you said you don't have access to a climbing gym. Certainly makes things a bit trickier... At that point, your best bet is probably to keep training the way you are. Keep things light enough to do lots of reps. Lean muscle is the goal. Do push-ups, use a barbell. Get super ridiculously pumped and think about climbing.

Core exercises are going to help a lot, as it sounds like this is a rather overhung problem, with few feet. My sister always does what she calls "5 minutes of pain", which is just a 5 minute long, no rest, core workout. It's actually quite hard, and it can be changed to suit your needs, lengthened with more kinds of movements, etc. The base of it is this:

Minute 1: Push-ups
Minute 2: Push-up position
Minute 3: Drop to Plank
Minute 4 + 5: Rotating side-planks (30 seconds, the swap sides).

As you can see, it's very open-ended. Can add more time for sit-ups, more Push-ups, whatever.

The goal is to do it non-stop, which is much more difficult than it sounds (for myself, anyway!) If you stop, that's fine, but start going again; at least finish!

I know this isn't "DYNO POW3R", but I think helps all together. Good luck, and crush that dyno!


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By Mike McKinnon
From Golden, CO
Oct 17, 2012
Bunny pancake

Howrad McGreehan wrote:
Keep things light enough to do lots of reps. Lean muscle is the goal.


This is actually bad advice. If you are training power as the OP said he wanted to, keepings things light does not train power.

There is a massive misunderstanding around exercise that the heavier you go the more bulk you build. Nothing could be further from the trurh.Contraction against 80 to 90% of the one repetition maximum for 2Ė6 repetitions (reps) causes myofibrillated hypertrophy to dominate which does not have an associated increase in size unlike sarcoplasmic hypertrophy which builds size.

Power training must be done explosively with heavy weight as both Mono and Aerili suggest.


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By slim
Administrator
Oct 17, 2012
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

working hard climbing, then messing around on wild dynos sounds like a great way to see a PT once a week for a few months.

also agree w/ mike mckinnon. light isn't right. at least not in this case.


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By Robert D.
From Boulder, CO
Oct 17, 2012
Yargh, Pirate Rob do be in Yosemite

First off, Hank's advice to HTFU is pretty spot on.

Second, it seems the whole thread has moved to power development, which seems off target to me. Sure, developing power will help help the OP make a bigger dyno, but I am fairly confident that's not his problem. His problem is that he gets to the dyno fatigued.

Any sort of power movement is going to be made significantly more difficult by the degree of fatigue. Therefore I'd say the OP will get more benefit training for power-endurance and slower strength (1-2minutes of output, opposed to 5-30seconds). This type of training will prevent the fatigue from setting in on the lower section, and give the OP a greater chance to hit the move. If he can get there fresh, and still can't make the dyno, then I'd prescribe power development.

For developing that 1-2minute window, try a workout starting with a strength component and ending with a "cardio" sprint. For instance, 80% of your max pullups, followed by 20 burpee pullups as fast as possible. Rest 2-6minutes, and repeat 6-8 times.

I have a lot of respect for the other posters and would be interested in their thoughts, but I thought it was necessary to point out that the discussion has been dominated by power development, which probably isn't the best prescription given the OP's situation (though it is totally rad and fun to talk about).


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By Will S
From Joshua Tree
Oct 17, 2012

Since we're already slightly OT, and it's related to speed/power this seems like as good of a place as any...

I found this article pretty interesting, an assertion that campusing doesn't achieve the effects we think of in plyometric training due to the time being too slow to effectively use the stretch shortening cycle. Basically they claim you lose the accumulated energy before the concentric fires.

www.marvinclimbing.com/english/articles.php?id=21


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