Trad practice without trad climbing?

So I wan't to get a lot of practice placing gear. Yes, I've spent time placing gear at the base of crags, I've done 10 or so leads, and even fallen on a nut (it held!). With freezing temps upon us in the north east, I'm running out of climbing time (and partners willing to watch me run it out!).

Anyway, my gear placements are pretty shit and I'm considering two "activities" to get better. (1) Top rope solo aid climbing: basically I'd get to see how the gear moves/acts when weighted, while also giving me some more confidence and, of course, placement practice. (2) While climbing in the gym, practice finding stances and holding each move on a route for ~15 seconds.

What do you all think? Got a better idea? I'd love to hear it. Surely there is no substitute to experience. Thanks.

Your idea #1 is actually a pretty good one.

Before you start leading trad routes you should be proficient in building gear anchors. In order to be proficient in building gear anchors you need to know how to place adequate protection. I would suggest you start with that. Find a mentor to take you out and build gear anchors. Once you've built enough gear anchors you will notice you will start to have a keen eye for places in the rock to stick pro.

Placing gear is honestly quite simple but you need someone with knowledge and experience to teach you what a good placement looks like first(Cams or passive). Also learn the capabilities and limitations of your gear (ie. KN rating, flexible stem, etc.)

i would find a mentor at all costs. even better, a person currently leading. follow their lines and study their gear and trad style. study how they rack their gear and how they react to hairy situations.

trying to learn trad without a mentor by reading up on it and mild experimentation is like learning karate from a book and then going out to the bar...

no amount of literature or videos will critique you. its your life we are talking about.

also you need to study rope systems, anchors, rescue, knots. a lot of this can be done in your room. learning rescue can be done almost totally in doors if you want to simulate things.

i did just have an idea though...if you wanted to place lots of gear on the ground and post up pictures we would be more than willing to give some positive/constructive criticism.

Both of your ideas are pretty solid, but I would favor having a belayer over soloing any day. Even if you are TRing. But your idea about placing gear and aiding on it while on TR is an excellent way to learn placements and test how they react when force is applied without really risking too much. Just keep in mind that lead falls generally apply more than just downward force. Learn to anticipate that and place accordingly.

Your second idea is always useful, not just in trad either. Always be aware of the pump factor, and always be creative and look for good stances and rests.

Aid solo, carry full rack even on short practice routes. Get physically fit: do stair master to build leg strength, work on core and back muscles too. At the gym do lots of moderate laps for endurance.

learn the concepts of why the gear works and then it becomes obvious what will work for you. Remember if you doubt a piece you can always add a second piece and equalize it. Unless you can't then you're probably missing the actual good placement unless you're on a runout route.

thats a lot of unlesses :/

The top-roped solo-aiding is a great idea, I've done that. There's a 5.2 at my local crag you can place gear all over, it was a good one to learn on. You'll be surprised what will hold... and you'll be doubly surprised when something unexpectedly pulls. I recommend, if you can get a set of ascenders, that you leave all the pieces in and fix a rope thru them, then jug that rope. You'll learn a lot from having pieces pop out when the rope is weighted.

Don't lead if you know your placements are shit!
TR solo aid will not teach you anything more than you can learn on the ground. You need a mentor. There is no point practicing something that you can't judge.
All bounce testing will teach you is how to place 2Kn gear.

First thing a new leader needs to learn is what is a good stopper or cam. Then recognize spots that will take a good stopper or cam. Finally practice placing lots of stoppers and cams.
Now you will be able to lead safely.

Thanks for all the suggestions. The one issue I have with a mentor is that I might be able to get out one or two more times in the season. TR aid solo I can do with gloves on when its freezing out.

I have had instruction on how to place gear and I know when a piece is good or not. My stopper placements are bomber. It was not till recently that I got a set of cams (and tri-cams) and I'm iffy with them. I think seeing the way they act when loaded, even with a small force, will help me understand and trust them.

Once I have a better grasp on where and how to place cams. I agree that climbing with an experienced partner will be necessary to learn how to put it all together (rope drag, gear anchor building, route finding, etc.)

The key to trad (in my opinion) is to lead only that which is WELL within your ability range. You are placing pieces that you really should NOT be falling on.

Granted, you need to be able to rely on your placements should you fall, but many people go a lifetime without falling on trad lead.

So the only practice is to get out on moderate routes and actually trad lead. Screw the "mock" thing.

I think that aid climbing, either top rope solo or top rope belayed, is essential for learning about gear placements. Of course, you bounce test every piece. (Be careful not to look at the piece while bouncing on it; if it blows it will hit you in the face.) The idea that you can learn to judge gear without ever actually testing it is commonplace and, if you think about it, preposterous.

Top-rope aiding won't teach you everything though. In particular, you don't get a chance to practice rope management. Keeping drag low, keeping nuts from lifting (and realizing when it is likely to happen), keeping cams from walking, and the critical skills involved in making sure the second is adequately protected, none of these can be addressed via top-rope aiding.

Aiding still has many advantages. One is that at some point you will run out of the most appropriate gear and will have to learn to make do with more creative placements. Another is that you will learn how to aid your way up sections, which is an essential skill for anything longer or more remote than roadside crags. When things go wrong, the ability to do improvised aid climbing will save your ass. I think it is far more important than the collection of self-rescue antics that nowadays are deemed essential knowledge.

A third advantage of aiding is the sheer number of placements you'll have to make, far more than you'd ever place in several free pitches. This should help, not only in terms of judging placements, but also in efficiency of making them, i.e. choosing the right type and size piece for the situation at hand.

Speaking of efficiency, buy yourself an inexpensive bench vise and use it to learn what size cam to choose. Begin by cranking down the vise until the cam lobes are perfectly compressed (if you aren't sure about this, at least look at the Metolius "rangefinder" cams), and once you know what a perfect placement looks like, set the vise randomly and test your ability to grab and place the right cam on the first try.

Meanwhile, while learning to lead, your best bet is redundancy. Realize that you are bound to make some placement mistakes and try to mitigate their effect by not making any one piece critical to your survival.

A second thing is mental attitude. Climbers new to trad, especially if trained in a gym/sport context, tend to think all situations are resolved by moving up. Since there isn't another bolt up there waiting to be clipped, moving up under pressure can be and has been the beginning of an accident. I think the appropriate attitude is to first insist on getting in the best gear possible, even if this means moving up and down a few times. In my experience, it takes people a long time to learn this, and often requires observing someone who is good at it to even realize how protection can be achieved in the midst of difficult moves.

Finding stances and holding positions in the gym can help. Mainly, the trad leader will need a lot more endurance to lead and protect a route than would be required for following it or leading the same route in a sport environment. The other thing I'd do is to try to downclimb routes as much as possible, if for no other reason than to reinforce the idea that sometimes climbing down is the thing to do.

rgold wrote:I think that aid climbing, either top rope solo or top rope belayed, is essential for learning about gear placements. Of course, you bounce test every piece. (Be careful not to look at the piece while bouncing on it; if it blows it will hit you in the face.) The idea that you can learn to judge gear without ever actually testing it is commonplace and, if you think about it, preposterous. Top-rope aiding won't teach you everything though. In particular, you don't get a chance to practice rope management. Keeping drag low, keeping nuts from lifting (and realizing when it is likely to happen), keeping cams from walking, and the critical skills involved in making sure the second is adequately protected, none of these can be addressed via top-rope aiding. Aiding still has many advantages. One is that at some point you will run out of the most appropriate gear and will have to learn to make do with more creative placements. Another is that you will learn how to aid your way up sections, which is an essential skill for anything longer or more remote than roadside crags. When things go wrong, the ability to do improvised aid climbing will save your ass. I think it is far more important than the collection of self-rescue antics that nowadays are deemed essential knowledge. A third advantage of aiding is the sheer number of placements you'll have to make, far more than you'd ever place in several free pitches. This should help, not only in terms of judging placements, but also in efficiency of making them, i.e. choosing the right type and size piece for the situation at hand. Speaking of efficiency, buy yourself an inexpensive bench vise and use it to learn what size cam to choose. Begin by cranking down the vise until the cam lobes are perfectly compressed (if you aren't sure about this, at least look at the Metolius "rangefinder" cams), and once you know what a perfect placement looks like, set the vise randomly and test your ability to grab and place the right cam on the first try. Meanwhile, while learning to lead, your best bet is redundancy. Realize that you are bound to make some placement mistakes and try to mitigate their effect by not making any one piece critical to your survival. A second thing is mental attitude. Climbers new to trad, especially if trained in a gym/sport context, tend to think all situations are resolved by moving up. Since there isn't another bolt up there waiting to be clipped, moving up under pressure can be and has been the beginning of an accident. I think the appropriate attitude is to first insist on getting in the best gear possible, even if this means moving up and down a few times. In my experience, it takes people a long time to learn this, and often requires observing someone who is good at it to even realize how protection can be achieved in the midst of difficult moves. Finding stances and holding positions in the gym can help. Mainly, the trad leader will need a lot more endurance to lead and protect a route than would be required for following it or leading the same route in a sport environment. The other thing I'd do is to try to downclimb routes as much as possible, if for no other reason than to reinforce the idea that sometimes climbing down is the thing to do.

This is really good advice--succinct, clear, and coherent.

rgold wrote:I think that aid climbing, either top rope solo or top rope belayed, is essential for learning about gear placements. Of course, you bounce test every piece. (Be careful not to look at the piece while bouncing on it; if it blows it will hit you in the face.) The idea that you can learn to judge gear without ever actually testing it is commonplace and, if you think about it, preposterous.

i don't think this is really completely true as blanket statement. some folks who are fairly mechanically inclined will be able to place good gear pretty much immediately without testing it. other folks can place gear for a long time, 'test' a lot of it, and still not be particularly proficient at it. i know plenty of folks in both categories.

wow rgold /thread

well done :)

Standing at the bottom of a crag practicing placements is a good way to start learning but really is not very accurate training for waht you will really encounter while trad climbing.

Top rope aiding will also help you progress to become a real trad climber but like some have already said bounce testing placements really only shows that it would hold a very small fall, more of a slip in your stance then any real lead fall.

My favorite way to get practice placing gear for new leaders is to put them on a sport route that has plenty of gear placement opportunities. You clip each bolt as you go and place some gear in between each bolt. This gives you great training on how to avoid the gear placement pump, allows you to become more proficient in picking the right sized nut/cam each time. Also this allows you to take actual falls on these placements(either planned or not) and see how they hold up to some real KN. If it pulls at least you have a bolt probably less then a couple feet away to arrest your fall.

aggressive bounce testing should give you a pretty good idea if the piece will hold a fall. but that is only one component of being able to place gear proficiently. i think ChefMattTanner's method is worthwhile, but i would wait until you are actually better at placing the gear. His method is better for learning to really trust the gear - you should be proficient at placing it first.

i would split placing gear proficiently into several categories:

1) evaluation of rock quality (if the rock is shit, the placement probably will be also)
2) being able to choose/place a good piece on the first try (this takes a lot of practice and being familiar with your gear, as well as the type of rock/crack you are placing the gear in).
3) being able to place gear that can take movement and loading from as many directions as possible ('keying' in the piece when possible).
4) being able to place the best piece possible when the geometry of the crack doesn't allow for 'keying' the piece in.
5) placing gear that isn't hard for the 2nd to remove (when possible).

some people think aid climbing on TR is going to be the best way to get better at this. i don't really agree. by the time you find a route that has straight forward gear, finagle your way to the top, drop in to set a TR without knocking rocks down from above, horse around with aiders and daisies and fifis and your ipod.... you see where i am coming from. you will spend a day climbing 20 feet and placing 10 pieces. you will probably actually place 2 pieces and bail because you can't reach the next piece or some other

i think it is WAY more efficient when you are starting out to take more of a systematic high volume sort of approach. one of the best things about the approach detailed below is that you don't have to waste a nice day of climbing to do it. you can do it when the weather is shit. you can do it at night after work. you can do it the morning on those weekends when grandma wants to pinch your chubby little cheeks at lunch on a saturday and wreck your day of climbing.

1) if you really, really want to assess your gear placing this is an important step. grab paper and a pen. make a table with 20 rows. the columns should be 'piece','attempts','multidirectional','bounce test','notes'
2) stuff your gear in your pack (pro, some slings, some biners, a nut tool).
3) go for a hike where you know there is abundant rock that has any sorts of cracks in it. they don't have to be big. they don't have to be real routes. they can even be roadcuts or other garbage.
4) your goal is 20 placements - here are the rules;

5) spot a crack as you are hiking, pick an approximately 3 foot stretch of that crack from a distance. go up to it and look at it for about 10 seconds.
6) grab your rack and guess which piece it should be. write this piece on the paper. place the piece. did you guess a correct piece the first time? if so, put a '1' in the attempts column. if not, put a '0'. if it didn't fit, guess another piece and keep repeating until you get a good looking piece.
7) once you get a good piece do the north-south-east-west multidirectional test. clip a sling to it. pull up, down, left, right. if the piece is still well placed, put a '1' in the multidirectional column. did the piece fall out or move into a position where it is shit? put a 0 in the column.

8) if the piece moved around, replace it so that it is ready for loading. put together some slings such that the bottom sling is about a foot off the ground. put one of your feet in the sling and put some weight on it. so far so good? bounce like a mofo on it (wearing a stiff soled shoe is kinda nice for this, it wears on you after a while). if the piece holds your nasty bouncing, put a '1' in the bounce test column. if not put a zero. it is nice to have the sling fairly close to the ground, so that you don't take a tumble if it blows.

9) write a quick note about what the placement was like - straightforward handcrack # 2 camalot? green hb brass offset placed sideways in a tricky flared seam with a slight lip to keep it in? etc.

10) at the end of the day, calculate the totals and the averages for each column. in particular, the average will give you a pretty good idea of how you are doing. as you repeat this exercise, you should see these averages go up. a person who is proficient at placing gear should be batting 90% to 100% in all categories, all types of gear, all types of crack in most cases. in the case of really difficult placements, one of the first things that might become impossible is placing a multi-directional piece - this testing will help you identify these placements. this is ABSOLUTELY important, particularly if you are thinking about doing hard and/or poorly protected gear routes.

a really handy thing about this data is that you can look at it and figure out if nuts are giving you problems, or cams, or placing multidirectional pieces etc. this will allow you to pinpoint weaknesses. also, you can start out with straightforward cracks, and after you have mastered those - you can start picking more difficult ones.

if you do this a handful of times, you should get a LOT better at placing gear. if you aren't getting better, you should get some serious mentoring or possibly face the realization that it might not be for you. sounds harsh, but some people don't really ever fully get it.

hope this helps.

Hire a guide for a day, this is the best investment you will make in your climbing career! Scope of day - gear placement, building anchors and mock leads with feedback from guide.

Find someone who knows what they are doing to go over placements with you. (you can follow and clean their routes)

Top rope and practice placements (have your friend look at your placements)

Lead and place gear on something easy enough that you probably will not fall but hard enough that you could fall, else you are free soloing and placing gear pointlessly. (nothing that can replace having to place gear on lead with a risk of fall). Than have your friend look at your gear and tell you what they think of it.

You can sit there and practice all day long and think you can do it but it all changes when you are truly leading and will have to rely on the gear if you fall. Make sure you place lots of gear so if stuff does fail you have backup and over time you will learn what you can trust and what you have to put to just stop the leg shaking so you can get to a better placement.

Just remember nothing is 100% safe placements are a % of how likely the placement will hold, the lower the % the more gear you throw in.

Ben Beckerich wrote:Do pretty much everything in this thread, if you can... if you can't, contrary to the naysayers, top-rope aiding is how a LOT of trad climbers got their initial gear placement skills. You can't always find someone who can mentor you.

If you don't at least have someone tell you what is good or bad you are free soloing until you fall enough times to find out which are good or bad.

If you are going to teach yourself at least get on top rope a ton of different placements and fall from 10-20ft above the placement on the gear with the top rope as a backup. The goal is not to place gear that isn't questionable but to place gear that you are not sure of or that you think are bad and fall on them a few times so you can learn the line between good and bad.

"My favorite way to get practice placing gear for new leaders is to put them on a sport route that has plenty of gear placement opportunities."

Good luck finding this in southern New England :)