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To paint or not to paint? THAT! is the question
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By Tea
Feb 22, 2007
just Jong it!

whoever the genius is that painted that hanger needs a swift kick in the nads.

How Objectionable!


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By Steve Kahn
Feb 22, 2007

hopefully you haven't all already been over this, but what's the story with the "no good" stamped homemades??

always brings a smile to my face. i think i've seen these around moab?

obviously, someone's got a dark sense of humor.

can anyone clear up the history for me?


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By Stephen Colbert
From utah
Feb 22, 2007
me bringing freedom home <br />

Steve Kahn wrote:
hopefully you haven't all already been over this, but what's the story with the "no good" stamped homemades??
Speaking of stamping things on hangers, whats with putting your name on hangers? Some sorta ego trip?


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By tenesmus
Feb 22, 2007

Tony Calderone wrote:
Never said it wasn't OK. That's usually what I do with bolts and studs. As far as other hardware goes... I just did what I thought was best on this route. I suspect you and everyone else does the same. That is why there is so much garbage on climbing routes and a major reason why access is such an issue. People like you would rather attack people cleaning up the mess than help them.

When I try and ask honest questions this is what I get. Many people have reservations about those anchors - I'm just the person who asked you about it. I guess I do have a preconception of the kind of guy you are. I'm open to change and that's why I asked. Guess I was right after all.


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By Jimbo
Feb 22, 2007

The argument for painting hangers, at least on popular routes is absurd. As anyone flashed on the fact that the line of chalked holds between the non-painted bolts might be a little more matchable to the passing hiker than a bolt hanger every 10 feet.
You want to play this game either climb without chalk or make sure whatever chalk you use is the same color as the rock. Of course you'll need several chalk bags on many routes as the rock generally isn't the exact same color from the bottom of a route to the the top.


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By Tom Hanson
Feb 23, 2007
Climber Drawing

John Hegyes wrote:
Well, whatever you all end up doing, try painting the hardware before putting it on the rock. Example of what not to do...


John's photo exemplifies what can be avoided by using a stencil template. It is best to paint the hangers prior to installation, however, if you are doing so retro, it is best to place a hanger-shaped template over the hanger prior to painting.


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By tenesmus
Feb 26, 2007

Most of the questions you've asked have been either something like, "how old are you anyway?" or rhetorical questions like' "do you believe that's all you've done?"

As far as asking you in private before I post in public, I've tried that with no success. You still haven't answered my Begue question.

I'm really not sure why I let this stuff get under my skin like it does.


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By Buff Johnson
Feb 26, 2007
smiley face

Tony, my argument against painting hangers (using camo) would be for a protected slab pitch(es) where the lead is working with larger interval spacing. In this case, the climber needs to spot where the protection is so they can navigate the moves & the route. Also, I don't see the non-climber having their experience in the outdoors hampered as they wouldn't be looking at a boltline defining a route, the rock would still define itself.

As opposed to the sport crag where each move can have fixed pro, the climber doesn't really need to work navigation; camo use is more an ideal from my point of view. Though, then the argument is the use of chalk which is going to mark the line anyway; then, use colored chalk or no chalk, my problem is that I need chalk for technical fingers & tips.

I guess these arguments really depend on how the non-climber enjoys a given outdoor area as to the impact I should be placing on the route.


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By Jimbo
Feb 26, 2007

I have no problem with painting hangers, I think it's a good idea. I usually do paint my hangers. I just have a problem with the "bolts are an eyesore" argument. Hell just go to Eldo, Devils Tower or any other popular trad area and look at the lines of chalked holds on every trad route. No bolts on these routes, but no ones complaining about the chalk lines. It all seems a bit disingenuous to me.

I would agree that camouflaging bolts on the notorious run out slab fests of Tuolumne Meadows or South Platte is probably unnecessary and not in the best interest of climbers or search and rescue.


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By Larry DeAngelo
Administrator
From Las Vegas, NV
Feb 26, 2007
!

Jimbo wrote:
... but no ones complaining about the chalk lines...


Hey-- I complain endlessly about the chalk. I think it is going to be an access issue in the future, and it's already a slap-in-the-face to the low-impact philosophy.


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By John Hegyes
From Las Vegas, NV
Feb 26, 2007
South of Windy Peak

Larry DeAngelo wrote:
Hey-- I complain endlessly about the chalk. I think it is going to be an access issue in the future, and it's already a slap-in-the-face to the low-impact philosophy.

I can vouch for him, he does complain endlessly about chalk.

But seriously, I can't stand the way chalk looks on rock either, whatever happened to "leave no trace"?


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By bsmoot
Feb 27, 2007
Me in the 70's

OK, I gotta get this over with...I'd like to take this time to issue a public apology...

Especially to the visual impact guys. I'm sorry about all of the non-painted hangers I've placed throughout the years. In American Fork & BCC my chains were never painted...I'm SO SORRY. I've left rap slings around trees...SORRY! In Zion, when I descend from a big wall, rap slings and unsightly webbing have been left. SORRY AGAIN...I've even cleaned dirt out of pockets, worn a bright T shirt and trampled the ground as I hike to and from the cliffs...dang

Please everyone, see it in your hearts to forgive me.


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By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Feb 27, 2007
Stabby

If you don't like chalk, simply soak your hands in Lime for 10 minutes prior to the climb.

I wonder if there were a lot of ethical debates about petryglyphs at the time


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Feb 27, 2007
modern man

I think someone belongs in law school.


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By Adam Catalano
From Albany, New York
Feb 27, 2007
me

I've got a good one...This fall at the Gunks, some lame-o decided to cable-swage 4x6 placards with politically charged quotes on them on a bunch of the popular rap stations.

Who the heck wants to hear about politics while enjoying a nice day of climbing?

Apparently they thought they were doing everyone a favor by reminding them of what learned people had said in the past, however, many were pissed off and the offending parties agreed to take them all down.

So I'm okay with colored hangers and replacing dangerous bolts, but lets keep the crag for climbing and the car bumper for opinions.


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By tenesmus
Feb 27, 2007

Tony Calderone wrote:
It will break my heart if we lose our privilege to climb somewhere because of all the shiny hangers I placed on routes in the past. I sincerely apologize for placing visually obvious hardware years ago. I never used to do much to lessen the impact of hardware I placed/replaced. Replacing those fixed anchors with stronger/ smaller/ camouflaged hardware will reduce arguments that can be used to take away our climbing privileges. It may be years before Iím able to substantially improve the situation. In the meantime I ask for your forgiveness and help. Personal attacks only divide us. Taking action to lessen our impact will help solve the problem. I know I can do a better job at reducing our impact. Iíve heard some very valid arguments about paint not matching the rock very closely; paint entering the water supply or being eaten by birds; and not wanting to see names on routes (even if only for a short time). Iím thinking about ways I can improve what I do (while maintaining some of the benefits these ideas provide) without going bankrupt in the process. I donít have answers that will please everyone. But IĎve thought of a few things and please recognize that Iím always doing my best. If you have some constructive criticism I would love to hear it. If you just want to personally attack me, please save your finger strength for crimping.

These are all points all very well taken. I also like what you said about the most bolts not needing replacement in the Wasatch. The ASCA seems to have a good program for replacing those that do.

With that and your post in mind, you'll have a lot of work going back through your own routes first.


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By tim f
From Albuquerque, NM
Feb 27, 2007
Me and the boys

Tony Calderone wrote:
To those arguing to leave these 2 old bolts in place: 1) I reduce or maintain visual impact on routes. I donít increase it. If you want to add bolts to the route please do it yourself. 2) These 2 Grade III bolts do not meet the strength standards of most bolts placed on climbing routes today. They are also not designed for the hardware they are attached to. The bolt heads are half-inch long cones designed for half-inch deep countersinks. They are clearly not intended for use on thin/flat bolt hangers. They might hold falls. I have repeatedly taken hard falls on quarter-inch bolts, too. That doesn't mean I would trust it to hold my son. These are all safety issues by any reasonable standard. 3) I already replaced these bolts with far better anchors. I'm asking you to please let me remove the old ones without causing any more fuss.


Uh, are you sure you "replaced" the bolts? Didn't you just add extra bolts to the belay station?


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By tenesmus
Feb 28, 2007

Regarding the Rivers Edge, Chris Begue told me he added some bolts to it but he couldn't remember what kind of hangers he used. I can't remember if they actually were ASCA that Nate and Tony pulled off (or what actually happened up there) but Steve said no.?


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By tenesmus
Mar 1, 2007

"He also confirmed that he placed ASCA hangers on some of those added bolts/studs. In some cases he knew the bolts were added. In some cases he did not."
This doesn't make any sense. I know you're trying to make things more clear, but it isn't. Why don't you just call him Mike anyway - he already posted on this thread (or was it the other one about this situation?) His words are more clear than yours.


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By mikewhite
Mar 1, 2007
  Third bolt on last pitch of cheetah

Okay lets all back the fuck up and chill out. I have stayed out of this a much as possible. But now I can't ,this has gone too far.
I have been talking to tony about what has been going on, and he has been very reasonable and stated his side of the story to me. Bolt's are a very touchy subject for all climbers. We all have very strong opinions about them. Well opinions are like assholes..ext...
We need to stop all of this shit -slandering,bashing,and CHOPPING
right now for the sake of LITTLE COTTONWOOD CANYON. No we don't need a bolting committee but we need to get some kind of civil discussion going but not on the net. I would like to set up a meeting with the main players in lcc to talk about some of the issues about bolting,rebolting,chopping. Lets let cooler heads prevail and solve some of the problems we are facing. I would like to involve bsmoot,Merrill bitter, tony, slca, asca, brianslc, James garret, and many others involved- the list is still growing and if you are interested then call me personally. If anybody has any suggestions on who should be there please e-mail me. This will not be a bitch fest
if anybody yells screams or throws a punch they will be shot by me and mister colt. We will meet a local bar within walking distance of my house and I will buy the beer. (I am gong to regret that last comment) We need to stop assuming things about tony I feel that he is honest about what he has done and won't deny it if he did. We may not agree with it but his intentions were good and in some cases he may be owed an apology. I am not defending nor attacking anybody just trying to save lcc.
mike white
asca
801-274-0147


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By John J. Glime
From Salt Lake City, UT
Mar 1, 2007
...

mikewhite wrote:
I feel that he is honest about what he has done and won't deny it if he did. We may not agree with it but his intentions were good and in some cases he may be owed an apology.


And I am suppose to believe you are Steve's brother?! Wow, it is like night and day... (teasing)


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By mikewhite
Mar 1, 2007
  Third bolt on last pitch of cheetah

John J. Glime wrote:
And I am suppose to believe you are Steve's brother?! Wow, it is like night and day... (teasing)



He is the mail man's kid lol.. Ha..Ha.. thats funkin funnny I don't care who you are..
love ya steve
mike


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By hawkeye
Mar 2, 2007

mikewhite wrote:
Okay lets all back the fuck up and chill out.... I would like to set up a meeting with the main players in lcc lccmonkey@msn.com


first of all agreed.

second of all, who the fuck is a main player?

what you ought ot be telling Ton is this. Leave everyones routes alone. if he wants to fuck with routes then he can fuck with his own.

and ASCA while providing a service should have actions that are beyond question. that is to say. be frickin careful about their actions and totally avoid any of this type of crap.

that is just so we dont ge tony cryin again....


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By mikewhite
Mar 2, 2007
  Third bolt on last pitch of cheetah

I do not speak for the asca I am just a member and a volunteer.
This is not an asca project nor is it endorsed by the asca.
I have been asked by several people including tony and mediate or negotiate the situation. I am doing this by myself for the sake of climbing in lcc.

mike


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By Healyje
Mar 3, 2007
girl40

Just a note to you guys - the ASCA isn't an arbitrator of climbing / bolting disputes or a commando team of the righteous who know your area intimately. They're just a bunch of folks just like you, but who have banded together to try and help provide resources and support to folks who take up the task of reconditioning old routes with fixed pro. They don't have any higher moral authority than you folks right there in Utah - in fact, they're no different than you guys - and they're subject to all the exact same debates and arguments trying to arrive at a concensus. Don't count on anyone else sorting this out for you - get it done yourselves...


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